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Obama and the Constitution

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admin
5174 posts

Very good, Virginia, but the confusion goes much further than the common mistake of using the term "Marxism" interchangeably  with the form of totalitarianism under Lenin/Stalin and their string of thugs that became known as "Communism" - even though that form of communism probably had Marx spinning in his grave.

Socialism, in its purest form, is really not a whole lot different from what was practiced by our ancestors in America for hundreds of years (picture Pilgrims and other early settlers.) Everyone worked together to build the community, everybody did as much as they could to help make that community self-sufficient, and when someone - despite their best efforts - fell short, everyone stepped forward to help them out. It's like when a farmer would get sick or injured at harvest time - all of his neighbors would pitch in to bring in the crops, knowing that if the situation were reversed and they were sick, he would do the same thing for them.

Marx saw socialism as a means to an end - that end being "communism." Entire regions would be loosely organized into "communes" which would work to assure that everyone who could be productive, was, and that everyone who could not contribute fully would be taken care of by those who could contritube ("From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.")

Mr. Marx overlooked two basic facts of human nature, however: 1. Man's basic desire to be rewarded and not punished for working harder than someone else, and, 2. Man's basic unwillingness to voluntarily give up power once he acquires it.

The first really isn't that complicated. People who find themselves working harder and harder only to see the fruits of their labor given freely to those who WON'T work hard eventually tire of it and slack off. Meanwhile, those who have grown comfortable living off the fruits of the labor of others grow ever more demanding, and at some point, something has to give. It's basically why productivity among American workers - who could always look forward to upward mobility - has continued to grow, while productivity in the old Soviet Union declined precipitously over the decades. There just wasn't any incentive to produce any more than your neighbor did if the state was going to take away (by force, if necessary) the excess fruits of your labor and give it to somebody who didn't want to work quite as hard as you did.

The second thing Marx overlooked, regarding the acquisition of power, should have been obvious to ol' Karl, but he didn't see it coming. In an ideal Marxist/communist society, the need for a powerful, all-controlling centralized government diminishes as "socialism" evolves into pure "communist" utopia. Unfortunately, Mr. Lenin and others didn't see it that way, leading to more than 70 years of a Soviet state that functioned under the guise of "communism" when, in reality, it was a totalitarian socialist state. (We, on the other hand, are headed toward being a "representative republic socialist state.")

And we fell for the mischaracterization. Wink

In summary (can I do that?), Marxism and communism (not totalitarianism) in its purest form are one and the same, and "socialism" (speaking in generic terms) is just a means to achieve communism. BUT - there are a lot of aspects to socialism.

PAPPY is correct that all societies have some elements of "socialism" nowadays, including the United States. For all practical purposes, they must, in order to avoid the fate that befell the French monarchy in 1789. The argument is really over how far to push that socialism.

"Socialism" and "communism" in their pure forms can only succeed if those in the community (hey, do ya think that word has anything to do with the word "commune?") voluntarily participate in the program because they, as a community, recognize the benefits of redistributing the wealth based on ability and need.

TAXATION to achieve that goal - particularly if it is taxation specifically intended to "punish" those who contribute more than their share to the system - smells of totalitarianism and (uppercase) Communism cloaked as Marxism/socialism/(lowercase) communism. Obama wants to call it something else, though: "Spread the wealth" and "fairness." How clever! Undecided

I'll be quite honest with you. If I thought Mr. Obama had, in his heart, a belief that Karl Marx' idea of socialism leading to a pure communist state might work here and wanted to pursue that, my reaction to it would be different. Socialism has seduced many a young man (including this one for a time some four decades ago) because, on its surface, it sounds so perfect. But it failed, everywhere it's been tried, because in every case there's been that power/totalitarianism issue the rears its ugly head.

What Obama is talking about through punitive taxation and government-forced wealth redistribution smacks of Leninism/Stalinism, as has always proven to be the case in "communist" societies. I don't question his motives as much as I question his honesty. Any way you cut it, what he is suggesting is that the GOVERNMENT punish those who work hard and produce by FORCIBLY taking from them to give to those who don't. For the record, we have about 600,000 Cuban refugees and their descendants in South Florida at this moment because a fella named Fidel Castrol pulled that bull**** in 1959. (We don't do business with them anymore.)

Marxism was most certainly not intended to develop a "nanny state" where the GOVERNMENT takes care of its elderly, its infirm, its young, its lazy, its ne-er-do-wells. It was intended to let the "community" ("commune") do that. Leninism/Stalinism/Obama-ism is an animal of a totally different stripe.

If Obama would be honest about that - if he would admit that he's inclined toward the totalitarian or near-totalitarian form of (lowercase) Communism - then I would be the first to admit that he's neither a Marxist, a socialist, or a communist. But I'm sure he'd never accept even a passing comparison to 70 years of Leninist/Stalinist Soviet society.

I've probably said more than enough. Word on the Driver Show tomorrow is probably already going to be that ol' JDTippett is a closet Communist. But, hey, it's my first "wall of text" in weeks now. Laughing

member
198 posts

OK. But if a Democrat does it, it is Socialism. When a republican does it, is it 'redistributing the wealth'?

"Over the opposition of oil companies, Republican Gov. Sarah Palin and Alaska's Legislature last year approved a major increase in taxes on the oil industry — a step that has generated stunning new wealth for the state as oil prices soared."
....
"Palin's administration last week gained legislative approval for a special $1,200 payment to every Alaskan to help cope with gas prices, which are among the highest in the country.

That check will come on top of the annual dividend of about $2,000 that each resident could receive this year from an oil-wealth savings account."

-Copyright © 2008 The Seattle Times Company

__________________
Serving the upstate since last Thursday.
member
1065 posts

JD,
 
Thank you for the "wall of text". I don't have a clue if any of what you said is true but I am least enjoyed the verbiage. Laughing 
 
Vote how you must, but I assure you every thing will be okay. I was broken hearted when "W" "won" the 2000 election.  I said at the time.  "He is our President we must give him chance".  All I can say is that I am not better off than I was eight years ago and neither is America. I don't know that Gore would have done any better.  I do know that if he had provided the kind of leadership that we got from "W" he would not have been reelected in 2004.

I don't see Obama as our savior, or all "truth and light" but I do believe he is an honest young man and will  provide for all Americans the best government leadership for these troubled times.  I admit it is a controversial choice but when/if he is elected please give him a chance.

As for the Congress, I am as disappointed as the rest of you and believe that term limits might be an answer to all the corruption there.
?
305 posts


Very good, Virginia, but the confusion goes much further than the common mistake of using the term "Marxism" interchangeably with the form of totalitarianism under Lenin/Stalin and their string of thugs that became known as "Communism" - even though that form of communism probably had Marx spinning in his grave.

Socialism, in its purest form, is really not a whole lot different from what was practiced by our ancestors in America for hundreds of years (picture Pilgrims and other early settlers.) Everyone worked together to build the community, everybody did as much as they could to help make that community self-sufficient, and when someone - despite their best efforts - fell short, everyone stepped forward to help them out. It's like when a farmer would get sick or injured at harvest time - all of his neighbors would pitch in to bring in the crops, knowing that if the situation were reversed and they were sick, he would do the same thing for them.

Marx saw socialism as a means to an end - that end being "communism." Entire regions would be loosely organized into "communes" which would work to assure that everyone who could be productive, was, and that everyone who could not contribute fully would be taken care of by those who could contritube ("From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.")

Mr. Marx overlooked two basic facts of human nature, however: 1. Man's basic desire to be rewarded and not punished for working harder than someone else, and, 2. Man's basic unwillingness to voluntarily give up power once he acquires it.

The first really isn't that complicated. People who find themselves working harder and harder only to see the fruits of their labor given freely to those who WON'T work hard eventually tire of it and slack off. Meanwhile, those who have grown comfortable living off the fruits of the labor of others grow ever more demanding, and at some point, something has to give. It's basically why productivity among American workers - who could always look forward to upward mobility - has continued to grow, while productivity in the old Soviet Union declined precipitously over the decades. There just wasn't any incentive to produce any more than your neighbor did if the state was going to take away (by force, if necessary) the excess fruits of your labor and give it to somebody who didn't want to work quite as hard as you did.

The second thing Marx overlooked, regarding the acquisition of power, should have been obvious to ol' Karl, but he didn't see it coming. In an ideal Marxist/communist society, the need for a powerful, all-controlling centralized government diminishes as "socialism" evolves into pure "communist" utopia. Unfortunately, Mr. Lenin and others didn't see it that way, leading to more than 70 years of a Soviet state that functioned under the guise of "communism" when, in reality, it was a totalitarian socialist state. (We, on the other hand, are headed toward being a "representative republic socialist state.")

And we fell for the mischaracterization. [image]

In summary (can I do that?), Marxism and communism (not totalitarianism) in its purest form are one and the same, and "socialism" (speaking in generic terms) is just a means to achieve communism. BUT - there are a lot of aspects to socialism.

PAPPY is correct that all societies have some elements of "socialism" nowadays, including the United States. For all practical purposes, they must, in order to avoid the fate that befell the French monarchy in 1789. The argument is really over how far to push that socialism.

"Socialism" and "communism" in their pure forms can only succeed if those in the community (hey, do ya think that word has anything to do with the word "commune?") voluntarily participate in the program because they, as a community, recognize the benefits of redistributing the wealth based on ability and need.

TAXATION to achieve that goal - particularly if it is taxation specifically intended to "punish" those who contribute more than their share to the system - smells of totalitarianism and (uppercase) Communism cloaked as Marxism/socialism/(lowercase) communism. Obama wants to call it something else, though: "Spread the wealth" and "fairness." How clever! [image]

I'll be quite honest with you. If I thought Mr. Obama had, in his heart, a belief that Karl Marx' idea of socialism leading to a pure communist state might work here and wanted to pursue that, my reaction to it would be different. Socialism has seduced many a young man (including this one for a time some four decades ago) because, on its surface, it sounds so perfect. But it failed, everywhere it's been tried, because in every case there's been that power/totalitarianism issue the rears its ugly head.

What Obama is talking about through punitive taxation and government-forced wealth redistribution smacks of Leninism/Stalinism, as has always proven to be the case in "communist" societies. I don't question his motives as much as I question his honesty. Any way you cut it, what he is suggesting is that the GOVERNMENT punish those who work hard and produce by FORCIBLY taking from them to give to those who don't. For the record, we have about 600,000 Cuban refugees and their descendants in South Florida at this moment because a fella named Fidel Castrol pulled that bull**** in 1959. (We don't do business with them anymore.)

Marxism was most certainly not intended to develop a "nanny state" where the GOVERNMENT takes care of its elderly, its infirm, its young, its lazy, its ne-er-do-wells. It was intended to let the "community" ("commune") do that. Leninism/Stalinism/Obama-ism is an animal of a totally different stripe.

If Obama would be honest about that - if he would admit that he's inclined toward the totalitarian or near-totalitarian form of (lowercase) Communism - then I would be the first to admit that he's neither a Marxist, a socialist, or a communist. But I'm sure he'd never accept even a passing comparison to 70 years of Leninist/Stalinist Soviet society.

I've probably said more than enough. Word on the Driver Show tomorrow is probably already going to be that ol' JDTippett is a closet Communist. But, hey, it's my first "wall of text" in weeks now. [image]

-jdtippett

YAWN...........................

__________________
Hell has frozen over. Get out the ice skates.
admin
496 posts

VOR: "YAWN..........................."

It's ok. I know a lot of people who can't be bothered with an detailed, intellectual discussion.

SSHM, you're our poly-sci major, care to weigh in?

?
828 posts

How different from FDR does anyone feel Obama is with his proposed programs?

__________________
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. ~Author Unknown
?
828 posts

interesting

__________________
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. ~Author Unknown
member
2368 posts


Very good, Virginia, but the confusion goes much further than the common mistake of using the term "Marxism" interchangeably with the form of totalitarianism under Lenin/Stalin and their string of thugs that became known as "Communism" - even though that form of communism probably had Marx spinning in his grave.

Socialism, in its purest form, is really not a whole lot different from what was practiced by our ancestors in America for hundreds of years (picture Pilgrims and other early settlers.) Everyone worked together to build the community, everybody did as much as they could to help make that community self-sufficient, and when someone - despite their best efforts - fell short, everyone stepped forward to help them out. It's like when a farmer would get sick or injured at harvest time - all of his neighbors would pitch in to bring in the crops, knowing that if the situation were reversed and they were sick, he would do the same thing for them.

Marx saw socialism as a means to an end - that end being "communism." Entire regions would be loosely organized into "communes" which would work to assure that everyone who could be productive, was, and that everyone who could not contribute fully would be taken care of by those who could contritube ("From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.")

Mr. Marx overlooked two basic facts of human nature, however: 1. Man's basic desire to be rewarded and not punished for working harder than someone else, and, 2. Man's basic unwillingness to voluntarily give up power once he acquires it.

The first really isn't that complicated. People who find themselves working harder and harder only to see the fruits of their labor given freely to those who WON'T work hard eventually tire of it and slack off. Meanwhile, those who have grown comfortable living off the fruits of the labor of others grow ever more demanding, and at some point, something has to give. It's basically why productivity among American workers - who could always look forward to upward mobility - has continued to grow, while productivity in the old Soviet Union declined precipitously over the decades. There just wasn't any incentive to produce any more than your neighbor did if the state was going to take away (by force, if necessary) the excess fruits of your labor and give it to somebody who didn't want to work quite as hard as you did.

The second thing Marx overlooked, regarding the acquisition of power, should have been obvious to ol' Karl, but he didn't see it coming. In an ideal Marxist/communist society, the need for a powerful, all-controlling centralized government diminishes as "socialism" evolves into pure "communist" utopia. Unfortunately, Mr. Lenin and others didn't see it that way, leading to more than 70 years of a Soviet state that functioned under the guise of "communism" when, in reality, it was a totalitarian socialist state. (We, on the other hand, are headed toward being a "representative republic socialist state.")

And we fell for the mischaracterization. [image]

In summary (can I do that?), Marxism and communism (not totalitarianism) in its purest form are one and the same, and "socialism" (speaking in generic terms) is just a means to achieve communism. BUT - there are a lot of aspects to socialism.

PAPPY is correct that all societies have some elements of "socialism" nowadays, including the United States. For all practical purposes, they must, in order to avoid the fate that befell the French monarchy in 1789. The argument is really over how far to push that socialism.

"Socialism" and "communism" in their pure forms can only succeed if those in the community (hey, do ya think that word has anything to do with the word "commune?") voluntarily participate in the program because they, as a community, recognize the benefits of redistributing the wealth based on ability and need.

TAXATION to achieve that goal - particularly if it is taxation specifically intended to "punish" those who contribute more than their share to the system - smells of totalitarianism and (uppercase) Communism cloaked as Marxism/socialism/(lowercase) communism. Obama wants to call it something else, though: "Spread the wealth" and "fairness." How clever! [image]

I'll be quite honest with you. If I thought Mr. Obama had, in his heart, a belief that Karl Marx' idea of socialism leading to a pure communist state might work here and wanted to pursue that, my reaction to it would be different. Socialism has seduced many a young man (including this one for a time some four decades ago) because, on its surface, it sounds so perfect. But it failed, everywhere it's been tried, because in every case there's been that power/totalitarianism issue the rears its ugly head.

What Obama is talking about through punitive taxation and government-forced wealth redistribution smacks of Leninism/Stalinism, as has always proven to be the case in "communist" societies. I don't question his motives as much as I question his honesty. Any way you cut it, what he is suggesting is that the GOVERNMENT punish those who work hard and produce by FORCIBLY taking from them to give to those who don't. For the record, we have about 600,000 Cuban refugees and their descendants in South Florida at this moment because a fella named Fidel Castrol pulled that bull**** in 1959. (We don't do business with them anymore.)

Marxism was most certainly not intended to develop a "nanny state" where the GOVERNMENT takes care of its elderly, its infirm, its young, its lazy, its ne-er-do-wells. It was intended to let the "community" ("commune") do that. Leninism/Stalinism/Obama-ism is an animal of a totally different stripe.

If Obama would be honest about that - if he would admit that he's inclined toward the totalitarian or near-totalitarian form of (lowercase) Communism - then I would be the first to admit that he's neither a Marxist, a socialist, or a communist. But I'm sure he'd never accept even a passing comparison to 70 years of Leninist/Stalinist Soviet society.

I've probably said more than enough. Word on the Driver Show tomorrow is probably already going to be that ol' JDTippett is a closet Communist. But, hey, it's my first "wall of text" in weeks now. [image]

-jdtippett

Ouch! JD this post gave me a headache. I do agree with a good deal of your long disquisition. The Spanish will be proud of you. Oh, that was a inquisition.

?
611 posts

Obama a Marxist?

Obama himself acknowledges that he was drawn to socialists and even Marxists as a college student. He continued to associate with Marxists later in life, even choosing to launch his political career in the living room of a self-described Marxist, William Ayers, in 1995, when Obama was 34.

Read it all here:

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/28/obama-affinity-marxists-dates-college-days/

member
198 posts

fox news... yeah, they are *fair* and *balanced* it must be true. :-P

__________________
Serving the upstate since last Thursday.
?
611 posts

Obama a Marxist? (Reposted after 4 Obama backers thumbed it down)
Obama himself acknowledges that he was drawn to socialists and even Marxists as a college student. He continued to associate with Marxists later in life, even choosing to launch his political career in the living room of a self-described Marxist, William Ayers, in 1995, when Obama was 34.
Read it all here:
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/28/obama-affinity-marxists-dates-college-days/

No wonder so few post anymore. The liberals outnumber the conservatives on this site and just love the looks of thumbs down. You should do away with the thumbs completely.

?
611 posts

Fox News is the ONLY balanced TV news outlet. They even make me, a conservative, mad at times by going overboard to balance the news.
Obama, if elected, will get rid of Fox and other balanced media and will leave the news to his government approved stations. Sound familiar?

?
479 posts


fox news... yeah, they are *fair* and *balanced* it must be true. :-P

-g-papadopolis


Un-Fair and Un-Balanced would be more like it.
__________________
member
2368 posts


Obama a Marxist? (Reposted after 4 Obama backers thumbed it down)Obama himself acknowledges that he was drawn to socialists and even Marxists as a college student. He continued to associate with Marxists later in life, even choosing to launch his political career in the living room of a self-described Marxist, William Ayers, in 1995, when Obama was 34.Read it all here:[url]

No wonder so few post anymore. The liberals outnumber the conservatives on this site and just love the looks of thumbs down. You should do away with the thumbs completely.

-prevail

I wonder if he could shut down a Weakly paper too? I've heard that he has his staff recording a local squawk-radio show for negative comments about liberals and democrats and socialist. To say nothing about cleverly vailed racist remarks about Ms. Floyd. Well, she has friends in high places who may end up even higher yet. There's goes the FCC license.

admin
3111 posts
jd,

Your dissertation was interesting but I must object to your characterization of Obama. It’s as if he invented our progressive tax system. You claim he ( and he alone, I guess, because you include no one else ) suggests that government punish those who work hard by forcibly taking from them and giving to those who don’t work hard.

In other words taking from those that get golden parachutes and six figure bonuses and giving it to the working class, or should I say the ‘not working hard enough’ class.
I assume you mean Obama’s intention to raise the tax rate on those making more than $250,000 a year from 35% to 40% is unfair.

Did you know that 40% was Clinton’s rate on earnings over $255,000 in’93 to ‘96 and over $280,300 in ‘97, yet he produced the largest surpluses in our history.
Did you know that Eisenhower’s rate on $200,000 or more was 91% ?
Did you know that  Nixon’s rate on $200,000 or more ranged from 77% to 50% during his term ?
Did you know that Reagan’s  rate on $215,400 for the years ‘81 thru ‘86 was 50%. Then he reduced it to 38.5% in ‘87 and 33% in ‘88 and produced deficits of 168 billion and 192 billion ?

Now if Obama earns a title of  Leninism/Stalinism for suggesting a 40% rate on $250,000  what title would you give  Ike, Nixon and Reagan ?

As for McCain, he said in 2001," I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us at the expense of middle-class Americans who need tax relief."

He then voted against tax cuts in 2001, 2003, 2004and 2005.

I must also point out that McCain’s health plan gives all Americans a $2500 tax credit whether they have a tax liability or not, or have health insurance or not.
 Oh, and he did vote for partial nationalization of our financial institutions.

Would you say that McCain wants to spread the wealth as well or that he leans toward Marxism/socialism/communism ?
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admin
5174 posts

PAPPY, you'll have to point out to me where I claimed Obama invented our progressive tax system. Your entire question beyond that is based on the false premise of something I never said or even implied. Feel free to beat me over the head with my own words any time, my friend, or beat me over the head with your words - but let's not get the two mixed up.

By the way, did you know John F. Kennedy was the one who LOWERED Eisenhower's tax rate on $200,000 or more to 35 percent? Ah, how I miss the Democratic Party of old. Wink

As for McCain's tax credit for insurance, PAPPY, did you know businesses already get a tax break for the cost of employees' health insurance? What's so bad about extending that same tax credit to individuals who purchase their own insurance? I'd think most Democrats would be jumping up and down with GLEE that McCain wants to extend tax breaks from those "evil" businesses to the working man.

member
165 posts

PAPPY, you'll have to point out to me where I claimed Obama invented our progressive tax system. Your entire question beyond that is based on the false premise of something I never said or even implied. Feel free to beat me over the head with my own words any time, my friend, or beat me over the head with your words - but let's not get the two mixed up. 

 (Foot in mouth ONCE AGAIN)

__________________
Freedom has a taste the protected will never know.
?
305 posts

But in all those years, was the house and senate controlled by Democrats? A president can say all he wants that he is going to lower tax rates, but the fact is if he is a republican and the house and senate are controlled by democrats, They don't play well together.

So don't try to push on me that Democrats want lower taxes than republicans. THEY DON'T.

__________________
Hell has frozen over. Get out the ice skates.
member
112 posts
You can tell party affiliations by what news show people watch and enjoy. FOX has a more conservative audience while, CNN seems to have a more liberal audience.  I look forward to next Wed. this year has seemed less informational and more nagative campaning than past years.

Nicole
member
198 posts

Unfortunately the elections will probably NOT be over on November 5th
Once again the Republicans will be selected, despite losing in the popular vote.

The Republican Party will cite “god’s will”, last minute change of heart by undecided voters, falling gas prices, surge in stock market and maybe even some other earth shattering news such as the Capture of Osama Bin Laden or a Terrorist Attack for their ‘come from behind’ victory.

Democrats will cry foul citing discrepancies between exit polls and actual ‘results’ (computerized ballot fraud) from certain key districts in swing states. Voter fraud exceeding those seen in the 2000 and 2004 presidential “selection” will be widespread. Lawyers from both sides will make a bundle.

Another item that will probably muddy up the works will be the untimely death of President Elect McCain, prior to the inauguration but AFTER the Electoral College meets on December 15th, creating a crisis and a furthering deepening of the economic mess. Sara Palin will be installed as the next POTUS on January 20, 2009.

I truly hope I am wrong on this one...

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Serving the upstate since last Thursday.
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