A summer or two ago, JD and I debated the war in Iraq.
I've decided that I want to revisit the topic of "what's wrong with us being in Iraq" because frankly it make so much more sense than the partisan Bushllit that JD has been spewing recently.
This is the problem with the war in Iraq.
Aside from the loss of lives and the massive loss of money is the loss of respect.
And respect is the ultimate currency.
in 2000, if this had happened we could have said "take your filthy tanks off me you damn dirty apes". Or something to the effect of "48 hours and we bring the ruckus". Instead we can only say things like
"This is not 1968" said US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice emphatically at a Washington news conference, "where Russia can threaten a neighbour, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it"
The fact of the matter is we can't go aroud saying to Russia "you can't overthrow governments" when we get to. It doesn't work that way.
And if we weren't tied up in Iraq, we could actually get to kick the ever-loving snot out of Russia, which is what our fighting force was built to do, not this house-to-house hearts and minds crap.
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Jon Stewart? Wow, Jack. Consider me humbled by your reliable sources. 
Actually, Jack, since Georgia attacked S. Ossetia to start this fiasco, I've actually defended Russia's right to do what it did (well, short of matching "ethinic cleansing" in Georgia with the "ethnic cleansing" Georgia pulled off in its own invasion - both of them should just knock that s*** of and get to the serious business of lobbing artillery rounds at each other.)
Since the break-up of the old Soviet Union in 1989, administrations of both parties - including Bill Clinton and George W. Bush - have armed and trained Georgian troops. In fact, when this little brushfire started, we transported 2,000 Georgia soldiers from Iraq to their hope country to fight.
I suspect if Russia suddenly annouced they were sending tanks, rifles, ammo and artillery to Puerto Rico, some of those conservatives AND liberals who are bashing Russia right may see the inconsistency of their positions on this one ... or not.
Mark this day down, Jack. It may be the first, last and only time you'll ever catch me defending Russia. 
By the way, and for what it's worth, we had umpteen United Nations Resolutions, an overwhelming vote of Congress and a coalition of allies that was larger than that of the first Gulf War before we went into Iraq. But I still here some talking about that "illegal" war we're engaged in. Go figure.
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Way to dodge, JD.
How about (for once) addressing the issue.
We have no political capital to spend helping OUR ALLY (remember) Georgia, out of this bind.
Georgia didn't attach S. Ossetia, it was part of Georgia.
The ethnic russians wanted to secede back to russia they could vote for it.
This isn't about self-determiniation for S. Ossetia. It's about Russia wanting to control the oil and gas reserves coming out of the Black sea, through Abkhzia.
The fact that you are defending Russia in this action at all demonstrates how little you understand world politics. That you make fun of my "source" who happens to be the US's UN ambassador, just shows you're not paying attention.
Russia is becoming a threat to us again, while we are busy trying to fight a war we never should have been involved in.
Of course, war with Russia, that would be like the good old days when we knew who we were fighting and didn't care who helped us (Osama bin Laden, anyone).
How about (for once) addressing the issue.
We have no political capital to spend helping OUR ALLY (remember) Georgia, out of this bind.
Georgia didn't attach S. Ossetia, it was part of Georgia.
The ethnic russians wanted to secede back to russia they could vote for it.
This isn't about self-determiniation for S. Ossetia. It's about Russia wanting to control the oil and gas reserves coming out of the Black sea, through Abkhzia.
The fact that you are defending Russia in this action at all demonstrates how little you understand world politics. That you make fun of my "source" who happens to be the US's UN ambassador, just shows you're not paying attention.
Russia is becoming a threat to us again, while we are busy trying to fight a war we never should have been involved in.
Of course, war with Russia, that would be like the good old days when we knew who we were fighting and didn't care who helped us (Osama bin Laden, anyone).
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I'm not dodging anything, Jack. I stated my case for staying out of that little war.
As for our political and military capital, we do still have our alliance with NATO. Georgia is within the sphere of influence of NATO and, in fact, wants to become a member of NATO. If it's that important to our European allies, what with it going on in their backyards, so to speak, let them spearhead a NATO effort to resolve it.
Meanwhile, if Congress wants us to get involved, let 'em vote to declare war on Russia. Political capital is nice, if the backing for it is solid, but after President Bush got what seems to be a fraudulent check from Congress on Iraq (a 93-6 vote in the Senate apparently is worthless in avoiding an "illegal" war), I don't see him sending American troops anywhere other than where they are already committed.
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JD Clampett ... dodging?
I'll second that. Someone call Magpie.
- SSHM
I'll second that. Someone call Magpie.
- SSHM
"To answer your question about M. Cindy Wilson, she has absolutely no reason to be Chairman or V. Chairman." -willieh
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Well, now, SSHM, I'll admit to having dodged some of your posts. My grandpappy always told me it's wise to step around the bull**** whenever possible, you know.
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... not that I haven't stepped in my own mess occasionally.
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Did I hear a bird call?
I think I covered JD's dodges in a post a long time ago, in a forum far far away...
I think you need to read a little more on this area of the world, JD. S. Ossetia has been recognized as a part of Georgia by everyone involved (U.S., Russia, NATO, UN, Zanzibar) . While I admit there has always been some tension in the area, the problem has been exacerbated lately by Russian meddling in the area. Hell, they were giving out Russian passports to anyone that wanted them like government cheese. Once they made a bunch of people "Russians" they had the excuse they needed to "protect their citizens". While this is not a 100% accurate analogy, it sounds a lot like the excuse Germany needed to protect ethnic Germans in Czechlaslovakia, where they being forced to do such horrible things as learn to speak Czech in school.
I'll admit, Georgia overplayed their hand a bit with their response, but I think we would do the same if Mexico was trying to convince Laredo and El Paso to change countries. However, the russian response has revealed their true intentions. They laugh at international law, they have no respect for their neighbors sovereignty, and they have correctly identified that we are in no position to challenge them. Their control of Central Asian energy reserves is a bigger threat than islamic fascism, and we can not do anything about it. In the long run, millions of people (maybe hundreds of millions) will be screwed by a resurgent and aggressive Russia. Iraq, Afghanistan, and Al Quaida on their best day couldn't do that. All those people that get screwed will be looking around wondering where the USA and NATO are? Why we haven't stood behind our post cold war proclamations of freedom and self determination? And can they ever count on us to do so?
Hopefully, it is not too late.
How long must we sing this song?
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Again, J-Dizzle,
You MISS THE POINT (as usual).
The point isn't that Russia is defending some homeland, which is apparently what you conservatives have to believe to cover your cognitive dissonance on the subject of national self determination.
Allow me to use simile to describe the situation:
The invasion of Russia into a foreign nation to reclaim some ethnic homeland is like Mexico invading Texas, and saying it was theirs the whole time, because their are ethnic Mexicans there who want it to be in part of Mexico, and it was part of Mexico historically in the first place.
In that case, YOU would be supporting the "right" of Mexico to take back what was theirs in the first place.
Obviously that would be you stepping in your own "mess" right about now.
S. Ossetia is part of Georgia as recognized by the International Community.
If S. Ossetians want to be part of Russia so darned bad, then hold a referendum, like the Quebecois did in the 90s. If it doesn't pass, then tough, the Russians can just move back to Russia.
If there is ethnic cleansing happening, then they need to come to the international community for help. FWIW, Ihave seen NO evidence of any such behavior on the part of Georgia, and even if there were, it doesn't necessarily justify the invasion of Georgia by Russia.
And yes, JD we absolutely could get Russia out of there in no time, except we are tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan and we spent all of our political capital on the world stage invading a foreign country that never threatened us.
And Congress NEVER declared war on Iraq (it is my understanding that it is Congress that must do so). So put that in your pipe and smoke it, Mr. 93-6. They weren't voting on a war, just to threaten force. But that's not the point either.
We were sold a faulty bill of goods. No WMD, no threat to America, no quick war, no self sustaining rebuild, no greeted as liberators, no turning the corner, and no birth pangs of democracy.
We got a war that was entirely different than the way it was sold to us.
And now we have to figure out where do we go from here.
Russia is resurgent, taking advantage of our hands being tied, they are working to quietly rebuild the old soviet union, and more terrifyingly, control strategic energy reserves that power the western world.
NATO can't do much without us. I mean, do you REALLY think the French can face down Russia. I think not.
No, the real teeth of NATO is the US.
And we are too busy falling into the trap that imperial Britain fell into, the morass that is Iraq.
We can't afford not to be involved with this problem. And we can't tell the Russians to get the hell out of a sovereign nation when we are doing the SAME. DAMN. THING.
That, my friends, is the problem
You MISS THE POINT (as usual).
The point isn't that Russia is defending some homeland, which is apparently what you conservatives have to believe to cover your cognitive dissonance on the subject of national self determination.
Allow me to use simile to describe the situation:
The invasion of Russia into a foreign nation to reclaim some ethnic homeland is like Mexico invading Texas, and saying it was theirs the whole time, because their are ethnic Mexicans there who want it to be in part of Mexico, and it was part of Mexico historically in the first place.
In that case, YOU would be supporting the "right" of Mexico to take back what was theirs in the first place.
Obviously that would be you stepping in your own "mess" right about now.
S. Ossetia is part of Georgia as recognized by the International Community.
If S. Ossetians want to be part of Russia so darned bad, then hold a referendum, like the Quebecois did in the 90s. If it doesn't pass, then tough, the Russians can just move back to Russia.
If there is ethnic cleansing happening, then they need to come to the international community for help. FWIW, Ihave seen NO evidence of any such behavior on the part of Georgia, and even if there were, it doesn't necessarily justify the invasion of Georgia by Russia.
And yes, JD we absolutely could get Russia out of there in no time, except we are tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan and we spent all of our political capital on the world stage invading a foreign country that never threatened us.
And Congress NEVER declared war on Iraq (it is my understanding that it is Congress that must do so). So put that in your pipe and smoke it, Mr. 93-6. They weren't voting on a war, just to threaten force. But that's not the point either.
We were sold a faulty bill of goods. No WMD, no threat to America, no quick war, no self sustaining rebuild, no greeted as liberators, no turning the corner, and no birth pangs of democracy.
We got a war that was entirely different than the way it was sold to us.
And now we have to figure out where do we go from here.
Russia is resurgent, taking advantage of our hands being tied, they are working to quietly rebuild the old soviet union, and more terrifyingly, control strategic energy reserves that power the western world.
NATO can't do much without us. I mean, do you REALLY think the French can face down Russia. I think not.
No, the real teeth of NATO is the US.
And we are too busy falling into the trap that imperial Britain fell into, the morass that is Iraq.
We can't afford not to be involved with this problem. And we can't tell the Russians to get the hell out of a sovereign nation when we are doing the SAME. DAMN. THING.
That, my friends, is the problem
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