Not A Dime More For Education

I am re-opening this topic just to let everyone that we are not the only place that has issues with education. Down Under they may have the answer to some of the problems.

Ok folks . . .
Enough is enough!
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Can we stop throwing money at education please? Can we actually take educating our youth seriously in this state? Can we establish a comprehensive plan of scraping the barnacles (e.g., public servants that DO NOTHING for this State or for Education) from the "bottom of the boat?"
It it safe to say that South Carolina has NEVER had an effective State Superintendent. That is, if we are measuring effectiveness in the terms of the products of our schools and not the slick mailings (Rex) or over-the-top parties (Nielsen, Tenenbaum) of past and current superintendents.
- SSHM

-sshm

The problems that exist with education in this state and county can be narrowed down to two sources generally. These sources are not where or whom most think they are. They also are not the most vocal or most well off financially.

In order from the most influential upon the students directly (arguable the most important across the entire system) to the least directly influential on students and most influential on the system.

Parents

Teachers

Building level Administrators

County/District level administrators

State Department of Education

Federal level

Parents - dictate attitude toward education in general and everything else related.

Teachers - most start as ambitious and desirous to make a "difference". Most that continue to teach try to and do, how ever limited, make a difference to a few or more students.

Building Level Admin. - out of touch, power and money hungry to the point of being puppets of the higher leveled administration, bureaucratic idiots.

County/District Administration - over paid, under experienced dictatorial bureaucrats. Broad members are politicians, enough said.

State and Federal education dept. leaders - they are politicians that want power but are not leaders. Some what self explanatory.

Bottom line is that the parents dictate what happens in the classroom and how it happens. Attitude of the student is everything at all levels.

The biggest problem faced by students is ambivalence. It starts at home and moves up/outward from there. It is not every parent but, there is certainly a culture of it and until the few or many parents that hate to do not care about education change their minds it is not going to change elsewhere.

As a parent and educator I see it and feel it.

It is passed from one generation to the next with too few exceptions!

Driver and his group are one form. Another form are the rednecks, gang bangers, and the hillbillies.

The other group that is more seditious and the most dangerous, although from most perspectives are supportive of education, even though not public and science education, are the fundamentalists and the "teach the controversy" groups. I know this is more focused on Science Education, but, if students learn science they can and will learn the other aspects of a well rounded education. I think that the institution of mandates requiring Latin be taught from elementary through high school and science with laboratory from K-4 through 12 would dramatically improve test scores and ultimately post secondary success.

The positives are obvious.

No, students would not prefer it. But, they would benefit immensely.

The problem is simplistic, the solution is complex and difficult to accomplish.

My suggestions could only be instituted after a change in the "American Culture" and subsequently would be beneficial only after said alteration in the attitudes held by the culture.

I await my "flaming", well actually I suspect that those that are offended by my post will "run and hide"/ignore it.

(Note, to ignore is to willfully remain in ignorance or to be ignorant.) 

Does the physical size of a post make it more valid?

(BTW, I think you were/are making good points until you tried to make this a "Driver" thing. Not everything wrong with this world is the fault of Rick Driver.)

      No, but I do wish we could avoid all those multiple spaces between paragraphs. I generally don't even bother to scroll through those because I have such a short attention span.
      I know Lefora's text editor sucks, but it sometimes seems to affect Hortus and a couple of others in ways that it doesn't plague the rest of us. Maybe Lefora's programmers could build in a block against multiple spaces between paragraphs?
      Non-seq, of course not everything in the world is Rick Driver's point. You must have missed the memo. EVERYTHING IS GEORGE W. BUSH'S FAULT.
      Just today, they're blaming Chicago's failure to get the 2016 Olympics on Bush. Some sort of convoluted logic about the United States' rejection of the Kyoto climate change agreement back in the 1990s that the U.S. Senate voted down in a 97-0 vote while Bill Clinton was President. Who knew all those Senators and Clinton were REPBULICANS and that George W. Bush was directing the vote back in 1997.

The problems that exist with education in this state and county can be narrowed down to two sources generally. These sources are not where or whom most think they are. They also are not the most vocal or most well off financially.

In order from the most influential upon the students directly (arguable the most important across the entire system) to the least directly influential on students and most influential on the system.

Parents

Teachers

Building level Administrators

County/District level administrators

State Department of Education

Federal level

Parents - dictate attitude toward education in general and everything else related.

Teachers - most start as ambitious and desirous to make a "difference". Most that continue to teach try to and do, how ever limited, make a difference to a few or more students.

Building Level Admin. - out of touch, power and money hungry to the point of being puppets of the higher leveled administration, bureaucratic idiots.

County/District Administration - over paid, under experienced dictatorial bureaucrats. Broad members are politicians, enough said.

State and Federal education dept. leaders - they are politicians that want power but are not leaders. Some what self explanatory.

Bottom line is that the parents dictate what happens in the classroom and how it happens. Attitude of the student is everything at all levels.

The biggest problem faced by students is ambivalence. It starts at home and moves up/outward from there. It is not every parent but, there is certainly a culture of it and until the few or many parents that hate to do not care about education change their minds it is not going to change elsewhere.

As a parent and educator I see it and feel it.

It is passed from one generation to the next with too few exceptions!

Driver and his group are one form. Another form are the rednecks, gang bangers, and the hillbillies.

The other group that is more seditious and the most dangerous, although from most perspectives are supportive of education, even though not public and science education, are the fundamentalists and the "teach the controversy" groups. I know this is more focused on Science Education, but, if students learn science they can and will learn the other aspects of a well rounded education. I think that the institution of mandates requiring Latin be taught from elementary through high school and science with laboratory from K-4 through 12 would dramatically improve test scores and ultimately post secondary success.

The positives are obvious.

No, students would not prefer it. But, they would benefit immensely.

The problem is simplistic, the solution is complex and difficult to accomplish.

My suggestions could only be instituted after a change in the "American Culture" and subsequently would be beneficial only after said alteration in the attitudes held by the culture.

I await my "flaming", well actually I suspect that those that are offended by my post will "run and hide"/ignore it.

(Note, to ignore is to willfully remain in ignorance or to be ignorant.) 

-hortus-custodis

hc
It's still too long with just 1 space between thoughts! (get a life)
Mark Powell

     No, Mark, it's not too long. Coherent arguments from both sides - rare as they are here usually - sometimes deserve more than a 30-second soundbite or a bumpersticker. Really.

          Non-seq, of course not everything in the world is Rick Driver's point. You must have missed the memo. EVERYTHING IS GEORGE W. BUSH'S FAULT.  

-jdtippett

Wow I really did miss that memo. I voted for for a Bush for President every chance I got!

     Same here, Non-seq. And I'd vote for him AGAIN if he could run again. I was just being sarcastic about the Chicagoans and Obama taking shots at Bush over the loss of the 2016 Olympic games.

The multiple line breaks were unintentional.

N S, the Driver reference was to point out that group and their attitude about public education at all levels. Driver is the "mouthpiece" for the group therefore his name appears.

Powel, what Is it too difficult to actually debate civilly?

Or is it that what I said "hit a nerve"?

I have a life and as I pointed out a significant portion of my life relates to education.

With the direction this thread is going I can see that any attempt to actually debate the topic of education in a civil and logical manner is useless.

I, as I have shown in other topics, am capable of debating issues. However, the constant and unwarranted ad hominem attacks and petty trash talk/complaints about the editor and the length of one's posts take precedence.

Since Bush was brought up, No Child Left Behind (NCLB) is a complete disaster and has had the opposite effects that were intended.

Bump... Those of you that were quick to criticize the bad line breaks and unable to argue the points made have now run away from this topic like some other topics that are "difficult".
 
Well I guess this thread will die again.
 
 

HC,  I have been on a soapbox for education in SC since I returned seven years ago. Yes, Parents are the most important ingredient. It is a huge responsibility to bring children into this World.  You must provide shelter and food, teach moral responsibilities, and inspire them to love books and get as much education as possible, thereby giving them the tools to earn a living and continue the circle of life. Teachers are the champions of encouraging each child to commit to doing their best and to be productive citizens. Principals should love their job and go to the school board with the real needs of the teachers and individual students. Pre K education would be a good beginning. Local School Boards should be the the most suited in our community to give the schools, teachers ,principals and parents the assistance to make these things happen.  Too often they are politicians.  More money for books and other resources. The State Board of Education needs to have the funds and control them so that they meet the needs of the students. No vouchers for the private schools. The federal government needs to be supportive of all the States and recognize, like the children involved, they are not created equal. Quit sending edicts that take up the the entire year teaching for testing. Pay back student loans  for the teachers that agree to teach for a certain amount of time. More time spent in school and less long Summer vacations.

Bump... Those of you that were quick to criticize the bad line breaks and unable to argue the points made have now run away from this topic like some other topics that are "difficult".  Well I guess this thread will die again. - hortus-custodis

Bump... Those of you that were quick to criticize the bad line breaks and unable to argue the points made have now run away from this topic like some other topics that are "difficult".  Well I guess this thread will die again.  

-hortus-custodis

Are you looking for an arguement? I thought your points were good. I think the presentation of those points with the many multiple spacings was distracting. I see you were able to control it in later posts. Good for you.

I think you are wrong in the "Driver" reference. There is no need to debate that point. You have your opinion and my opinion differs.

BTW, I did not "run away". I do have a life outside of this forum. I am not on here 24/7.

       A "life outside of this forum?" Non-Seq, that's an absolute OUTRAGE! It's BLASPHEMY! I'll have your head for that!

The "running away" comment was primarily directed at Powell. He sounded as if he disagreed and then did not and still has not returned.

NS, I have repeatedly heard Driver make disparaging comments about public schools, ALL levels, and his callers have either echoed those comments or been supportive. Driver is a steadfast supporter of Sanford and Sanford has done little else other than to try and ruin education in this state since he took office. Higher Education bore the brunt of his efforts and now he is trying to use the state schools to avoid impeachment and criticism for his misuse of state funds in the form of an airplane. Continually giving money to education is not what I am advocating. But, to take money away to the point that tuition at state schools has surpassed tuition for many private universities is simply wrong and unproductive in every way.

I was and am not "looking for a fight" from everyone. I was looking for a "fight" with those that disagree with what I posted. There are many that feel my comments are absolutely wrong and that to blame parents and students for the ills of the system is heresy.

Well, this is an education debate, but in regard to the comments on Bush, I would have a hard time voting for him again to be dog catcher.  Ronald Reagan was a great republican president.  Since then, twelve years of Bush has put the republican party in a spot that is going to be very hard to dig out of.  I really think, personally, the three terms of Bush has been the worst Presidencies of my lifetime.  One only has to remember that our economy was on the brink of collapse at the end of the Dubya Presidency and with 8 years in office, he can't just turn his back and say it was the fault of the previous administration.  He spent most of his 8 years trying to clean up his dad's mess. 

In regards to education, from a personal perspective, the best thing you can do as a parent is create the environment for your children that education is very important, and the foundation for your children, along with a spiritual life, etc., and do everything you can to make sure your children have the support and resources they need to succeed.  Though my first wife and I (she is a teacher) are divorced, that has not effected our doing everything we can, both of us to make sure our two children get the best possible education available, and put their best foot forward in doing so, and am happy to say we have two young men who, knock on wood are straight A students. 

I too have been a supporter of Sanford's ideas, but not what he has done, personally in his life, or his methods in working with his peers.  In regards to education, Sanford is right that, no matter where the funds come from (Federal, State, etc.), we simply cannot afford to not use our funds on education wastefully.  In regards to K-12 education, we must find a way to lower the "overhead" or administrative costs, if you will, and make sure as much of our funds go to educating our children, in the classroom.  Sanford is right....it is not cost efficient to have small school districts (example 5 in Anderson County), and pay administrative staffs for all, when consolidation, done right could reduce administrative costs.  When you look at it in terms of level of responsibility, it makes absolutely no sense that the second smallest school district in Anderson County (#2) has the highest paid superintendent.  That just does not seem to be a wise use of $$$.  Secondly, we talk about tort reform in healthcare, well in essence that "protection" needs to be afforded to our teachers.  Many kids go to school and are having to get more than the education teachers are to provide them, because they lack the discipline, support and structure at home.  Teachers and administrators need to be afforded the opportunity to deal with these discipline issues, without having to look over their backs and fearing being sued for doing the right thing.

Our state is among the lowest in disposable income per person or per household, education is at or very near the bottom, and our unemployment is among the highest in the nation.  The primary driver for that (unemployment) is a lack of availability of skilled workers to do the jobs of today.  There are alot of children and adults that have gotten a very good education that can compete with anyone in the nation in South Carolina schools, but there are far too many that haven't.  At the end of the day we can come up with all the excuses in the world why our child might not get a good public education, but it starts at home with the parents.........we simply cannot expect anyone else to have our child's interest at the forefront of their importance, if as a parent, we do not.