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City/County Joint (April 22)

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fanatic - member
4027 posts
Hey Art, if you want faster EMS response times, teach the citizens how to drive and they you need to pull over to the RIGHT and STOP for an approaching emergency vehicle rather than trying to out run or just ignore it and hope it goes away like most of you do. Let the cops start writing tickets for impeding an emergency vehicle and make the minimum fine $1500, then you'll get faster response times.

- zn706



ZN706,

You make a good point about pulling to the right, before stopping, when approaching emergency vehicles. I have observed cars stopping, without pulling to the right, which led to boxing in the emergency vehicle.
fanatic - member
3352 posts
Bump !

It would be unfair to Councilman Kirven to allow this forum to disappear before he can fulfill his promise to advise us when he receives clarification.

I assume he has asked the City Manager to review and correct his department’s misstatements in the stat sheet passed out to the public at the meeting.

It should not take long.

I found over a half dozen errors in about 30 minutes.

.

__________________
If a tree don't fall on me, I'm gonna live till I die. . .Tex Ritter

fanatic - member
3352 posts

Bump---for above reason.

Wonder what the delay is ?

The many mistakes are obvious.
__________________
If a tree don't fall on me, I'm gonna live till I die. . .Tex Ritter

fanatic - member
3352 posts

It has been a full week since Anderson released corrupted statistics to the press, the public and the joint committee members.

Why the delay ?

Apparently Councilman Kirven still awaits clarification from his City Manager.

I can understand his despair, I've been waiting 2 1/2 weeks for the City Manager to justify making non-city residents pay for the City's benevolence toward Duke.
__________________
If a tree don't fall on me, I'm gonna live till I die. . .Tex Ritter

novice - member
28 posts
I received today from City staff two charts showing water rates for all 15 entities retailing water in Anderson County or near enough to Anderson County to purchase water from the Joint System. One shows the 23 different costs for 4500 gallons/month (600 cubic feet) and the other for 6000 gal/mo (800 c.f.). I am told that the average residential customer on Anderson's system uses 600 c.f. per month which equates to 4500 gal/mo. However, many agencies across the state use the 6000 gal/mo figure as an average. Thus the two different charts.

The chart for 4500 gal/mo shows that the average cost among the eight municpalities (including Homeland Park) operating in Anderson County or buying water from the Joint System is $20.39 (ranging from a low of $15.88 to a high of $30.15) for "inside" residential customers and $29.97 (ranging from a low of $21.35 to a high of $37.15) for "outside" residential customers. The average cost among the other seven non-municipality members of the Joint System is $18.83 (ranging from a low of $13.95 to a high of $$23.75) for residential customers.

I will be happy to make both charts available to anyone who is interested. Perhaps someone will volunteer to create a link, but I am afraid that is beyond my current computer skill level. The above averages were my calculations based on the charts prepared by the City staff so feel free to get copies of the charts, double check my math and make whatever other calculations you desire.

As for the City tax base figure, the total assessed value of $73,496,000 is for all taxable property types, including residential, commercial and personal property. The owners of these properties pay both City and County taxes on that property.
fanatic - member
3352 posts
I received today from City staff two charts showing water rates for all 15 entities retailing water in Anderson County or near enough to Anderson County to purchase water from the Joint System. One shows the 23 different costs for 4500 gallons/month (600 cubic feet) and the other for 6000 gal/mo (800 c.f.). I am told that the average residential customer on Anderson's system uses 600 c.f. per month which equates to 4500 gal/mo. However, many agencies across the state use the 6000 gal/mo figure as an average. Thus the two different charts.

The chart for 4500 gal/mo shows that the average cost among the eight municpalities (including Homeland Park) operating in Anderson County or buying water from the Joint System is $20.39 (ranging from a low of $15.88 to a high of $30.15) for "inside" residential customers and $29.97 (ranging from a low of $21.35 to a high of $37.15) for "outside" residential customers. The average cost among the other seven non-municipality members of the Joint System is $18.83 (ranging from a low of $13.95 to a high of $$23.75) for residential customers.

I will be happy to make both charts available to anyone who is interested. Perhaps someone will volunteer to create a link, but I am afraid that is beyond my current computer skill level. The above averages were my calculations based on the charts prepared by the City staff so feel free to get copies of the charts, double check my math and make whatever other calculations you desire.

As for the City tax base figure, the total assessed value of $73,496,000 is for all taxable property types, including residential, commercial and personal property. The owners of these properties pay both City and County taxes on that property.

- Steve Kirven




Thank you, Councilman. Those corrections were important if continuing conversations on dual water rates and dual tax rates are to take place using accurate figures. I compliment you on the courtesy of a reply.

I have the following comments that perhaps you would consider:

1. The sources for disputing the contention that average usage is 600 cubic feet rather than 800 is twofold:

First, the City’s audited financials for fiscal 2007 show 800 cubic feet used for a residential monthly bill. ( See Exhibit G-4, page 79.).

Second, the statement by Jeff Caldwell, Anderson’s utility director in an article in AIM dated 4/30/06:
“ For example, an Electric City Utilities average customer uses 800 cubic feet of water per month. That’s 6,000 gallons. “

2. As for the contention that owners of the assessed value of $73,496,000 pay City and County taxes on that figure:

The City’s ’ Issues Overview ‘applies the county’s tax rates for EMS, roads and sheriff against that number and says this is the duplicated county taxes that city resident’s pay.

That figure includes ‘motor vehicles’, ‘commercial properties’. ’other personal property’, and excludes ‘tax exempt’ items.

It seems to me that owners of ‘commercial properties’ may not be city residents, and some may pay PILOT fees rather than regular tax rates. I also question if there is a dual tax paid on ‘motor vehicles’ for the alleged duplicated services. Finally, the categories ‘other personal property’ and ‘tax exempt’ need clarification as to what they comprise..

Since we are trying to compare apples to apples, wouldn’t an equivalent to non-resident residential
water rates be the county tax rate applied only to residential properties ?
Is my understanding accurate that non-residential commercial and industrial users do not pay double water rates ?

Councilman Kirven, I do appreciate your indulgence, and I hope you agree that the June meeting will proceed more smoothly if the numbers to be discussed are understood and agreed to as accurate beforehand.

Finally, I appreciate your offer of a copy of the computations used on other utility rates and would like to take advantage of it. I will send you an email with my address so you can snail-mail me a copy of the charts, if you can’t make them an attachment.

I thank you for that kindness.
__________________
If a tree don't fall on me, I'm gonna live till I die. . .Tex Ritter

fanatic - member
3352 posts
Forgive me for reopening this ‘golden oldie’, but allow me to bring it to a conclusion.

As you may recall, at the conclusion of the joint meeting, John Moore proudly passed out a stat sheet about water rates and duplicated tax items, prepared by his staff, as background material for the major effort at the next meeting to examine these issues.

John Moore passed out the statistics to the committee members, the press, and the public. It was instantly obvious that there were incorrect numbers included, most simple arithmetic errors.
My comments in this forum in that regard received the welcome notice and response from Councilman Kirven. He immediately asked John Moore’s staff to recheck the computations.

A week later, Joihn Moore’s staff sent the Councilman a reviewed and corrected set of numbers. He was kind enough to forward a copy to me, suggesting I review the corrections.
Guess what ?

Twelve of the sixteen computations of average monthly costs for municipally owned utilities were wrong.

I sent my findings back to Councilman Kirven and he, once again, asked the City Manager’s staff to recheck and correct the errors.
Finally, two weeks after the first bad arithmetic, the city’s administrative department appears to have correct stats.

When I was in business, if a manager of one of my departments had twice made simple errors on the same report and he let them go through to me, both he and the preparer would have been reading the classified.
But it is a different world today…and so it goes.

Anway, here are stats on average monthly water billings charged by the utilities participating in the ACJWS:

Municipally operated water utilities

Inside residents ( other than Anderson ) paid an average of $20.57
Outside residents (other than Anderson ) paid an average of 29.58 ( a markup of 44% )

Anderson residents paid an average of $15.88
Anderson non-residents paid an average of 31.76 ( a markup of 100% )

Investor owned water utilities

One single rate as allowed by law-an average of $18.83

Two final comments on above figures
__________________
If a tree don't fall on me, I'm gonna live till I die. . .Tex Ritter

fanatic - member
4027 posts
Pappy,

The practice of Dual Water rates is achieving its purpose. Many businesses and residential developments have requested annexation into the City.

Chili’s Restaurant has just submitted an application requesting annexation. I hope you and your neighbors will join us soon.
fanatic - member
3352 posts
Pappy,

The practice of Dual Water rates is achieving its purpose. Many businesses and residential developments have requested annexation into the City.

Chili’s Restaurant has just submitted an application requesting annexation. I hope you and your neighbors will join us soon.

- Art Kaldas



Art,

Annexation , whether I welcome it or not, can't happen for two reasons:
1. There is no contiguity to my sub-division.
2. The homes are not expensive enough to entice the city to annex.

Check out the property values of any recent residential annexations.
The city makes more money on their 100% water tax than they would get from city taxes on homes valkued under $300-325,000.
__________________
If a tree don't fall on me, I'm gonna live till I die. . .Tex Ritter

fanatic - member
3352 posts
Art,

Since you are a city resident, I was hoping to get your reaction to the incompetence of the city manager and his staff.

I now wonder if he miscalculated when he determined the need to have his neighbors over the city line pay their monthly water bill with a 100% tax ?
__________________
If a tree don't fall on me, I'm gonna live till I die. . .Tex Ritter

fanatic - member
4027 posts

Art,

Annexation , whether I welcome it or not, can't happen for two reasons:
1. There is no contiguity to my sub-division.
2. The homes are not expensive enough to entice the city to annex.

Check out the property values of any recent residential annexations.
The city makes more money on their 100% water tax than they would get from city taxes on homes valkued under $300-325,000.

- PAPPY



Pappy,

Contiguity can be obtained through time as more property is annexed. Chili’s Restaurant could not have requested its petition to annex a year ago. Amazing how life evolves.

Based on my observation of City Council, the City is always willing to accept requests for annexation, as long as it can provide police and fire protection within a reasonable time. The property value does not seem to be the deciding factor.
fanatic - member
3352 posts
Art,

Since you are a city resident, I was hoping to get your reaction to the incompetence of the city manager and his staff.

I now wonder if he miscalculated when he determined the need to have his neighbors over the city line pay their monthly water bill with a 100% tax ?

- PAPPY



Art,. . .?
__________________
If a tree don't fall on me, I'm gonna live till I die. . .Tex Ritter

fanatic - member
4027 posts
Art,

Since you are a city resident, I was hoping to get your reaction to the incompetence of the city manager and his staff.

I now wonder if he miscalculated when he determined the need to have his neighbors over the city line pay their monthly water bill with a 100% tax ?

- PAPPY



Art,. . .?

- PAPPY



Pappy,

Mr. John Moore is not ST John. He is a brilliant man, but not a perfect one.

The Manager of the City of Anderson has to manage a budget of $45 million and over 400 employees. If he doesn’t make a few miscalculations from time to time, I would be very concerned.
superstar - member
861 posts
Art,

Since you are a city resident, I was hoping to get your reaction to the incompetence of the city manager and his staff.

I now wonder if he miscalculated when he determined the need to have his neighbors over the city line pay their monthly water bill with a 100% tax ?

- PAPPY



Art,. . .?

- PAPPY



Pappy,

Mr. John Moore is not ST John. He is a brilliant man, but not a perfect one.

The Manager of the City of Anderson has to manage a budget of $45 million and over 400 employees. If he doesn’t make a few miscalculations from time to time, I would be very concerned.

- Art Kaldas



Art that is a cop out, the man is paid to make sure the information he gives out is checked and rechecked and checked one more time so that legitimate numbers can be used to move forward.
__________________
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.” William Pitt
fanatic - member
4027 posts

Art that is a cop out, the man is paid to make sure the information he gives out is checked and rechecked and checked one more time so that legitimate numbers can be used to move forward.

- noeline



Noeline,

As long as we have Pappy watching, the numbers will be checked until they are right. Be assured.
fanatic - member
3352 posts

Art that is a cop out, the man is paid to make sure the information he gives out is checked and rechecked and checked one more time so that legitimate numbers can be used to move forward.

- noeline



Noeline,

As long as we have Pappy watching, the numbers will be checked until they are right. Be assured.

- Art Kaldas



Art,

John Moore isn't paying me a cent to do his work for him.

If I hadn't brought the mistakes up and if Councilman Kirven hadn't been honest enough to get the City Manager to get it right, then the next meeting would be working with erroneous numbers. It is not my job to check Moore.

PS-- do you think he might give my home your water rate as compensation?
__________________
If a tree don't fall on me, I'm gonna live till I die. . .Tex Ritter

fanatic - member
4027 posts
Pappy,

I am appreciative of the fact that the dual water rate debate has led to the creation of the City/County Joint Committee. However, this Committee will have to move beyond dual water rates and dual taxation. It is politically impossible for the City Council to eliminate dual water rates, and it is equally impossible for the County Council to abolish dual taxation.

I hope the Committee will focus on projects which require joint efforts to achieve greater success. Some of these projects could be the following:

• The development of the Belk Site.
• Building a pedestrian walking trail from Anderson University to the County Court House.
• A comprehensive, joint recreation master plan.
• Improved and consistent zoning and land use standards.

The next City/County Joint Committee meeting is scheduled for Thursday, June 19, 12:00 pm, at City Council Chamber. I hope all City and County Council members are invited, along with interested residents.
fanatic - member
3352 posts
Pappy,

I am appreciative of the fact that the dual water rate debate has led to the creation of the City/County Joint Committee. However, this Committee will have to move beyond dual water rates and dual taxation. It is politically impossible for the City Council to eliminate dual water rates, and it is equally impossible for the County Council to abolish dual taxation.


- Art Kaldas



Art,

Seems to me I remember many comments from you that dual rates for duplicated taxes was the most urgent and important thing the joint committee could discuss.

Why the change ?

Or are you simply cloning some member's opinion ?
__________________
If a tree don't fall on me, I'm gonna live till I die. . .Tex Ritter

fanatic - member
4027 posts

Art,

Seems to me I remember many comments from you that dual rates for duplicated taxes was the most urgent and important thing the joint committee could discuss.

Why the change ?

Or are you simply cloning some member's opinion ?

- PAPPY



Pappy,

My views changed based on my observation of what happened in the Committee. At one time, the Committee members debated the idea of a combined animal control department. The County expected the City to participate in the cost, while the City believed that all equal service for all County resident, including those living in the City Limits, should not involve additional charges to City residents. Consequently, the whole plan was derailed, and the Committee stopped meeting for several months.

The City/County Joint Committee is a golden opportunity to make a real difference on a large scale. We need to remove the speed traps, so we can have a smooth ride.
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