25 people attended the City/County Joint Committee meetings, which included City and County officials, elected and appointed, along with news media reporter and interested residents. The discussion centered on the cost of EMS to City and County residents.
Mr. Taylor Jones, the County Emergency Services Division Director, presented the following information:
• Residents of Zone 9, which includes the City of Anderson, pay 3.2 mils for EMS services, which totals $12.80.
• County-Wide residents pay 5.7 mils, which totals $22.80.
• So, the total cost for Zone 9 residents is $35.60, while the cost for residents outside Zone 9 is $22.80.
The following debate followed:
Steve Kirven, “This issue is not only a City/County issue. It includes all residents living in Zone 9, which is mostly the urbanized area of the County, who are subsidizing the rural area.”
Michael Thompson, “That is correct. My people in District 5 are paying this dual EMS service tax, in addition to dual water rates.”
Larry Greer, “People outside Zone 9 are paying lower fee because they are receiving lower level of service. It takes much longer for an ambulance to reach people living outside Zone 9.”
Steve Kirven, “We need better service for all, and we need a fair price for all.”
Gracie Floyd, “We need to talk about water. We need to end dual water rates.”
Tom Dunaway, “We don’t need to have blinders on. We need to look at fairness to all areas. We cannot talk about dual water rates without talking about dual fees and taxes.”
Steve Kirven, “If we cannot set as adults and talk about all issues, we should not be in the position we are holding.”
Terrence Roberts, “We need to understand that what is right for the County is also right for the City, and vice versa.”
Bob Waldrep, “Is it possible that what we have is math problem? We simply need to search for what is fair.”
Steve Kirven, “The Common denominator in this situation is our State Legislators. But I don’t expect any solution from them anytime soon.”
Gracie Floyd, “We need to talk about each issue individually. Then, we can talk about the whole package.”
Tommy Dunn, “In the next meeting, the City will provide you with all information about the operation and costs of the water system.”
The next City/County Joint Committee meeting will be held at City Hall on June 19, at Noon. The agenda should include the following:
Inside/Outside Water rates
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City/County Joint (April 22)
Did cindi wilson not even show?
You are so painfully fair Art, even when you shouldnt be, that I know you wouldnt have left her out if she had been there...
You are so painfully fair Art, even when you shouldnt be, that I know you wouldnt have left her out if she had been there...
Actually, I didn't note either of the Wilson's being mentioned.
Did cindi wilson not even show?Maybe because she has managed to fuind and install seventy miles of water lines in her district, making her consitutuents less vulnerable to dry wells and government manipulation.Gracie and Larry are theones squealing about their poor folks suffering so. One might expect someone as smart as Mr. Greer to realize you should run water lines before you run sewer lines.Or build roads to nowhere. I sure hope his grandchildren have drinking water.
You are so painfully fair Art, even when you shouldnt be, that I know you wouldnt have left her out if she had been there...- palmetto_native
Larry thinks its more important to have softball fields than water.
Did cindi wilson not even show?
You are so painfully fair Art, even when you shouldnt be, that I know you wouldnt have left her out if she had been there...- palmetto_native
Palmetto Native,
The City/County Joint Committee has only the following members:
• City: Terrence Roberts, Steve Kirven, Tommy Dunaway.
• County: Michael Thompson, Bob Waldrep, Gracie Floyd.
Personally, I believe that the City/County Joint Committee is too important to limit its membership. I hope the City and the County Councils will consider inviting all their members to attend and participate in the Committee’s ventures.
The City/County Joint Committee has been formed as a response to our own blogger, Pappy. The main purpose of the Committee was to settle the dispute over dual water rates. However, attempts to resolve the dual water rates are leading to a gridlock due to the following response by the City:
The City believes that the issue of dual water rates has to be viewed only in combination with dual fees and taxation. The City summarizes its position as follows:
• Inside/Outside Water Rates:
Average monthly residential user: City of Anderson Inside $15.88. City of Anderson Outside $31.76. Anderson County Joint Water System Municipal Average – Inside $23.82 and Outside $34.36.
• Double Taxation – Sheriff’s Office:
City residents pay 30.8 mils, for virtually no service, for the Sheriff’s Office. In addition, City residents are paying for the Sheriff’s Office deficit.
• EMS:
Residents outside the City pay 5.7 mils for EMS. Residents inside the City pay 5.7 + 3.2 = 8.9 mils.
• Roads:
City residents pay $1,322,928 for roads. Only $200,000 is allocated by County Council annually to roads in the City limits.
In response to the City’s position, County officials believe that City residents are receiving superior services, which justifies their dual taxation.
It is obvious that dual water rates and dual taxation are very controversial issues, with no easy or quick solutions. So, I hope that the City/County Joint Committee will focus on the following issues, which could lead to possible victories, with no gridlocks:
• Joint animal control enforcement.
• Joint recreation plans.
• Joint economic development initiatives.
• Joint mass transportation expansion.
• Joint planning and land use standards.
The City believes that the issue of dual water rates has to be viewed only in combination with dual fees and taxation. The City summarizes its position as follows:
• Inside/Outside Water Rates:
Average monthly residential user: City of Anderson Inside $15.88. City of Anderson Outside $31.76. Anderson County Joint Water System Municipal Average – Inside $23.82 and Outside $34.36.
• Double Taxation – Sheriff’s Office:
City residents pay 30.8 mils, for virtually no service, for the Sheriff’s Office. In addition, City residents are paying for the Sheriff’s Office deficit.
• EMS:
Residents outside the City pay 5.7 mils for EMS. Residents inside the City pay 5.7 + 3.2 = 8.9 mils.
• Roads:
City residents pay $1,322,928 for roads. Only $200,000 is allocated by County Council annually to roads in the City limits.
In response to the City’s position, County officials believe that City residents are receiving superior services, which justifies their dual taxation.
It is obvious that dual water rates and dual taxation are very controversial issues, with no easy or quick solutions. So, I hope that the City/County Joint Committee will focus on the following issues, which could lead to possible victories, with no gridlocks:
• Joint animal control enforcement.
• Joint recreation plans.
• Joint economic development initiatives.
• Joint mass transportation expansion.
• Joint planning and land use standards.
• Inside/Outside Water Rates:
Average monthly residential user: City of Anderson Inside $15.88. City of Anderson Outside $31.76. Anderson County Joint Water System Municipal Average – Inside $23.82 and Outside $34.36.
- Art Kaldas
Wait, wait, wait.
Art, are you saying the County has dual rates? It's not clear since your statistic says "Average monthly..." Very confusing. Perhaps people in the County just use more water on average than those in the City.
Anyway - your info does SUGGEST that the County charges dual rates. And that Anderson City rates for County residents are actually lower than County rates for people outside the county (whatever that means).
Please explain. It certainly could put a new spin on things.
As for the comments on Councilman Larry Greer about the water/sewer lines and the road to no where... First off he has done both water and sewer
lines for his district. The road in question, was requested by the community where it is located.....
lines for his district. The road in question, was requested by the community where it is located.....
• Inside/Outside Water Rates:
Average monthly residential user: City of Anderson Inside $15.88. City of Anderson Outside $31.76. Anderson County Joint Water System Municipal Average – Inside $23.82 and Outside $34.36.
- Art Kaldas
Wait, wait, wait.
Art, are you saying the County has dual rates? It's not clear since your statistic says "Average monthly..." Very confusing. Perhaps people in the County just use more water on average than those in the City.
Anyway - your info does SUGGEST that the County charges dual rates. And that Anderson City rates for County residents are actually lower than County rates for people outside the county (whatever that means).
Please explain. It certainly could put a new spin on things.- AndersonNative
AndersonNative,
Whoa horse,
Art is in error because he was fed misinformation by a stat paper handed out by the City Manager.
Actually the average residential monthly water bill for city residents is $19.44 and $38.88 for non-residents when you add the tax of $19.44.
This is not only an historical figure confirmed by the city time and time again but you can go to Exhibit G-4
In the fiscal 2007 annual audited financial statements in the city’s website for additional verification.
As for his stat about the Anderson County Water System Municipal Average ( I assume he refers to the Anderson County Joint Municipal Water System ), it should be pointed out that the ACJMWS does NOT sell water to retail customers. It distributes water to county utility companies, including those privately owned water utilities that are PROHIBITED BY LAW from implementing dual rates.
Art's misstatement also came from the City Manager’s stat sheet.
Finally, the county does NOT have any ownership in any water utility and therefore does not charge single or dual rates.
Hope that clears up some of the city manager’s misstatements that Art unknowingly accepted as fact.
In Art's defense, as a city resident he should be able to accept as factual his city manager's stats.
I find it amusing the the residents who are served by the county's ONLY for-profit EMS provider are taxed at a higher rate..... Hmmmmmmmmmm.......
• Inside/Outside Water Rates:
Average monthly residential user: City of Anderson Inside $15.88. City of Anderson Outside $31.76. Anderson County Joint Water System Municipal Average – Inside $23.82 and Outside $34.36.
- Art Kaldas
Wait, wait, wait.
Art, are you saying the County has dual rates? It's not clear since your statistic says "Average monthly..." Very confusing. Perhaps people in the County just use more water on average than those in the City.
Anyway - your info does SUGGEST that the County charges dual rates. And that Anderson City rates for County residents are actually lower than County rates for people outside the county (whatever that means).
Please explain. It certainly could put a new spin on things.- AndersonNative
Anderson Native,
I appreciate Pappy’s “somewhat fair” defense. It is obvious that he and I view the issues from different angles.
Let me clarify the following:
• The average monthly residential use is 600 cubic feet or 5,000 gallons.
• Anderson County does not own or operate any water service.
• Anderson Regional Joint Water System is an association, which includes the following members: City of Anderson, Big Creek, Broadway, Central, Clemson, Clemson University, Hammond, Homeland Park, Pendleton, Powdersville, Sandy Springs, Starr-Iva, West Anderson, and Williamston.
• Some members of ARJWS are municipalities, who do charge dual water rates, and some are private companies, who do not charge dual rates.
• At the present time, we have a serious disagreement between the ARJWS on one side, and the City of Anderson and Clemson on the other side. ARJWS is proposing extending water lines to new customers at a total cost of $30 million, and distribute the cost to members based on their percentage ownership in the system. The City of Anderson and Clemson are suggesting a modified plan at a total cost of $10 million. During the next City of Anderson Council meeting, April 28, the City of Anderson Council and Clemson Council will meet jointly at 5:00 p.m. to discuss their joint position regarding this dispute.
Anderson Native,
I appreciate Pappy’s “somewhat fair” defense. It is obvious that he and I view the issues from different angles.
Let me clarify the following:
• The average monthly residential use is 600 cubic feet or 5,000 gallons.
• Anderson County does not own or operate any water service.
• Anderson Regional Joint Water System is an association, which includes the following members: City of Anderson, Big Creek, Broadway, Central, Clemson, Clemson University, Hammond, Homeland Park, Pendleton, Powdersville, Sandy Springs, Starr-Iva, West Anderson, and Williamston.
• Some members of ARJWS are municipalities, who do charge dual water rates, and some are private companies, who do not charge dual rates.
• At the present time, we have a serious disagreement between the ARJWS on one side, and the City of Anderson and Clemson on the other side. ARJWS is proposing extending water lines to new customers at a total cost of $30 million, and distribute the cost to members based on their percentage ownership in the system. The City of Anderson and Clemson are suggesting a modified plan at a total cost of $10 million. During the next City of Anderson Council meeting, April 28, the City of Anderson Council and Clemson Council will meet jointly at 5:00 p.m. to discuss their joint position regarding this dispute.
- Art Kaldas
Art,
Please, this is NOT a rate issue requiring a “somewhat fair” defense. This is an ACCURACY issue that you put yourself in the middle of because you believed what the Anderson City Manager’s stat sheet stated.
Unfortunately you didn’t realize that many statements were just plain wrong.
You wrote the average rates were inside $15.88 and $31.76 outside
That is incorrect.
You wrote that the ACJMWS had water rates.
That is incorrect.
You wrote that City residents pay $1,322,928 for roads
That is incorrect.
Now let’s examine the figures in your most recent comment:
You write that the average residential usage is 600 cubic feet or 5,000 gallons.
This in incorrect.
The average residential usage is 800 cubic feet or 6,000 gallons.
Go to an article about water on page 1B in AIM issue dated 04/30/2006. The article states, “For example, an Electric City Utilities average customer uses 800 cubic feet of water per month. That’s 6,000 gallons.”
The source for that statement ? Mr. Jeff Caldwell, Anderson’s utility director.
Art, give ECU a call.
When you write usage as ‘600 cubic feet or 5,000 gallons‘, you imply an equal relationship in conversion.
This is incorrect.
In that same article, Mr. Caldwell explained the mathematical relationship between cubic feet if water and gallons. If you multiply cubic feet by 7 ½ you have the gallon equivalent. Thus, 800 cubic feet is the equivalent of 6,000 gallons.
However, 600 cubic feet times 7 ½ is 4,500 gallons, NOT 5,000.
This error probably was a factor in the corrupted average rates shown.
Frankly, the entire stat sheet should be discarded and totally reworked.
Since it was offered as a basis for the next meeting’s discussion, it can only be characterized as a clumsy attempt to mislead or an horrendous series of erroneous numbers that no one checked.
When I was in business, heads would have rolled
Pappy,
I simply want to go beyond the numbers and focus on what could work. The City/County Joint Committee has the potential of being the best thing that ever happened to Anderson. If our local governments combine forces and tackle issues which benefit the whole community, much can be achieved.
Presently, the City has started a serious effort toward building the Belk Site. This effort will require public/private joint venture, and the City/County Joint Committee can play a major part in making it happen. In addition, the County has started a significant movement toward building a sustainable agriculture industry in Anderson County, which will require the cooperation of both urbanized and rural Anderson, and the City/County Joint Committee can be the place to enhance these efforts and promote this venture.
Dual water rates and dual taxation are two issues that can be resolved only through a comprehensive plan by the State Legislators.
I simply want to go beyond the numbers and focus on what could work. The City/County Joint Committee has the potential of being the best thing that ever happened to Anderson. If our local governments combine forces and tackle issues which benefit the whole community, much can be achieved.
Presently, the City has started a serious effort toward building the Belk Site. This effort will require public/private joint venture, and the City/County Joint Committee can play a major part in making it happen. In addition, the County has started a significant movement toward building a sustainable agriculture industry in Anderson County, which will require the cooperation of both urbanized and rural Anderson, and the City/County Joint Committee can be the place to enhance these efforts and promote this venture.
Dual water rates and dual taxation are two issues that can be resolved only through a comprehensive plan by the State Legislators.
Pappy,
I simply want to go beyond the numbers and focus on what could work. The City/County Joint Committee has the potential of being the best thing that ever happened to Anderson. If our local governments combine forces and tackle issues which benefit the whole community, much can be achieved.
Presently, the City has started a serious effort toward building the Belk Site. This effort will require public/private joint venture, and the City/County Joint Committee can play a major part in making it happen. In addition, the County has started a significant movement toward building a sustainable agriculture industry in Anderson County, which will require the cooperation of both urbanized and rural Anderson, and the City/County Joint Committee can be the place to enhance these efforts and promote this venture.
Dual water rates and dual taxation are two issues that can be resolved only through a comprehensive plan by the State Legislators.
- Art Kaldas
Art,
You presented the numbers initially and now you “want to go beyond them”. But they are WRONG numbers.
Why evade this issue ?
As a city resident, does it not disturb you that the city can’t ( or won’t ) present accurate figures in support of their position ?
I think you were involved in quality control before retiring. What would have been your reaction if a department presented completely incorrect figures to support their department’s efficiency ?
The question even goes deeper than that in this instance.
It would be interesting to hear from city council members as to their reaction. Are their ( and your ) employees so incompetent that such erroneous information can so easily be presented as the truth ? Or was this done purposefully ?
One must wonder. . .
Obviously the Mayor and other council members as well as the city manager read or are made aware of blog comments, so they can’t plead ignorance. Some contribute under pen names and some, like Councilman Kirven and ex-Mayor Shirley, have the guts to use their real names.
So, I challenge someone in authority from the city to comment on these inexcusably errors.
Anybody wanna bet the silence will be deafening ?
I had some of the same calculation issues when I reviewed the numbers. Yesterday I requested the City staff to review the numbers and advise me as to their accuracy. One issue is that some figures are based on 5000 gal/mo and others on 6000 gal/mo and I also have a question about the conversion from gallons to cubic feet. I will try to advise when I get clarification.
It is essential that we get accurate numbers so the comparisons and analysis can be meaninful. The process is further complicated by the fact that there are about 23 different rates throughout Anderson County. There are seven municipalities plus Homeland Park Water and Sewer Authority in Anderson County or near enough to get water from the Joint System. All eight have inside/outside rate structures. In addition there are seven other retail suppliers which are nonprofits or special purpose districts and each of those has its own rate structure.
I feel sure that any errors in the figures were not intentional. A full presentation on water rates is planned for the next City-County Committee meeting.
The greatest value of this committee is that at least a discussion is taking place about issues that affect our enitire community. Hopefully we can explore these issues with open and creative minds and with fairness across the board as our goal.
It is essential that we get accurate numbers so the comparisons and analysis can be meaninful. The process is further complicated by the fact that there are about 23 different rates throughout Anderson County. There are seven municipalities plus Homeland Park Water and Sewer Authority in Anderson County or near enough to get water from the Joint System. All eight have inside/outside rate structures. In addition there are seven other retail suppliers which are nonprofits or special purpose districts and each of those has its own rate structure.
I feel sure that any errors in the figures were not intentional. A full presentation on water rates is planned for the next City-County Committee meeting.
The greatest value of this committee is that at least a discussion is taking place about issues that affect our enitire community. Hopefully we can explore these issues with open and creative minds and with fairness across the board as our goal.
Sorry about the double post. I sent it the first time and it did not go. When I hit "Retry" it pushed both through apparently. So I have edited to remove the duplication. Still learning.
I had some of the same calculation issues when I reviewed the numbers. Yesterday I requested the City staff to review the numbers and advise me as to their accuracy. One issue is that some figures are based on 5000 gal/mo and others on 6000 gal/mo and I also have a question about the conversion from gallons to cubic feet. I will try to advise when I get clarification.
It is essential that we get accurate numbers so the comparisons and analysis can be meaninful. The process is further complicated by the fact that there are about 23 different rates throughout Anderson County. There are seven municipalities plus Homeland Park Water and Sewer Authority in Anderson County or near enough to get water from the Joint System. All eight have inside/outside rate structures. In addition there are seven other retail suppliers which are nonprofits or special purpose districts and each of those has its own rate structure.
I feel sure that any errors in the figures were not intentional. A full presentation on water rates is planned for the next City-County Committee meeting.
The greatest value of this committee is that at least a discussion is taking place about issues that affect our enitire community. Hopefully we can explore these issues with open and creative minds and with fairness across the board as our goal.- Steve Kirven
Councilman,
I do appreciate your candor and the courtesy of your response.
While the recheck is going on, I would suggest that you have them check the computation used to compute the
amounts shown that residents pay for the sheriff, EMS and roads.
I think you will find that the assessed value of $73,496,000
includes Commercial properties, motor vehicles, other personal property, less tax exempt. Certainly none of them should be referred to as 'residents'.
As a retired CPA and businessman it is beyond my belief that so many errors could be produced on one page of stats.
If it were my operation, someone would have a lot of explaining to do.
Perhaps it is too much to ask how this could happen ? ?
Steve Kirven,
I deeply appreciate your participation in our dialogue. It is takes political courage to respond to a blog, which has a tendency to turn to insanity from time to time.
In my observation of the City/County Joint Committee, I have realized the great potential impact of this Committee on how governments operate in Anderson County. So, I hope we use reason, compromise, and some flexibility to avoid gridlocks.
As a City resident, I do recognize the great benefits of living within the City Limits. We enjoy the following advantages:
• Superior police protection.
• Superior Fire Protection.
• Faster EMS response.
• Garbage Collection.
• Lower insurance rates.
• Lower water rates.
• A City Government and a City Council who will fight for our interest.
So, as a thankful City resident, I do recognize that even with dual taxation, we receive a bargain. At the same time, I do not want us to give our ability to charge dual water rates without equal return of value. Consequently, I wonder if we can make annexation to our City an option to all who are paying the higher water rates.
I deeply appreciate your participation in our dialogue. It is takes political courage to respond to a blog, which has a tendency to turn to insanity from time to time.
In my observation of the City/County Joint Committee, I have realized the great potential impact of this Committee on how governments operate in Anderson County. So, I hope we use reason, compromise, and some flexibility to avoid gridlocks.
As a City resident, I do recognize the great benefits of living within the City Limits. We enjoy the following advantages:
• Superior police protection.
• Superior Fire Protection.
• Faster EMS response.
• Garbage Collection.
• Lower insurance rates.
• Lower water rates.
• A City Government and a City Council who will fight for our interest.
So, as a thankful City resident, I do recognize that even with dual taxation, we receive a bargain. At the same time, I do not want us to give our ability to charge dual water rates without equal return of value. Consequently, I wonder if we can make annexation to our City an option to all who are paying the higher water rates.
Hey Art, if you want faster EMS response times, teach the citizens how to drive and they you need to pull over to the RIGHT and STOP for an approaching emergency vehicle rather than trying to out run or just ignore it and hope it goes away like most of you do. Let the cops start writing tickets for impeding an emergency vehicle and make the minimum fine $1500, then you'll get faster response times.
