The italicized comments are Nick’s latest blog. My comments are in regular form.
I am putting this here hoping for greater comment participation than blogs in the paper seem to attract.
If any of my comments are in error, I apologize and welcome correction. My effort is to clarify, not dispute.
Nick Charalambous
Area thirsts for more common sense in local water pricing
Posted November 2, 2007
For once, I'm glad that local officials are threatening a lawsuit. When it comes to the Anderson County Joint Water System proposal to improve water flow to the rapidly growing northeast of Anderson County, I think city officials are asking the right questions about whether the $21.2 million expansion is being paid for by the right people...
I've long been concerned about the Upstate's predeliction for interfering in the "markets" that drive real estate development, and asking the cities of CLemson and Anderson to bear half the cost of water-system upgrades for suburbanites just because that's their ownership share in the system is both wrong and environmentally unsound.
Nick, there is no ‘market’ for water distribution. There is only one system available. The ACJWS is a monopoly, without competition. Since water is the essence of life, to stop its distribution is to completely stop further growth in those affected areas of Anderson County.
It should also be pointed out that Clemson and Anderson voluntarily joined the conglomerate of retail water systems that bought the ACTWS from Duke. It would be interesting to read the agreement between the buyers, but I would guess that it clearly spelled out how the cost of future expansion would be shared.
If it doesn’t then that would just be another screw up by these business amateurs. After all, Duke screwed them out of over ten million dollars in connection with the deteriorated condition of the infrastructure.
Wherever possible, the true costs of suburban life should be factored into the price of services, such as utilities. There is a common sense solution -- that Hammond picks up the greater share of the cost by having a different price for the water it buys and passing those higher water prices onto its customers.
If that isn't possible because of legal/regulatory issues surrounding South Carolina's water utilities, then a lawsuit might be a refreshing way to restore some practicality.
Interestingly, many residents of the greater Anderson area have been upset over the city of Anderson's charging them double the amount for water compared to residents who live inside the city.
Nick, let’s not confuse the water distribution system with the water utilities. Electric City Utility is a retail seller of water that it buys from ACTWS. ACTWS delivers water to the water utilities which then resells it to homes.
The legal/regulatory issues surrounding utilities are really weird in this State. I don’t know what regulations, if any, cover water distribution systems. However for water utilities there is the SCPSC which regulates investor-owned utilities. But because the Home Rule Act permits Municipalities to own utilities, the SCPSC has no authority over them. Only the Legislature and the State Constitution can regulate these utilities and the good old boys in Columbia aren’t about to hang up this Municipal golden goose with the noose of cumbersome regulations.
That raised the hackles of Sen. Kevin Bryant among others, even though there's some logic in giving preference to longtime residents, many of whom paid to build the water infrastructure now being taken advantage of by newcomers in new growth areas. If city officials aren't successful in pressing their case, those same suburbanites who complained in the past will likely get soaked with higher water costs to benefit the ex-urbanites in northeast Anderson County now free-riding off them ....
So ironic.
It will be interesting to see if that changes Sen. Bryant's mind
Nick, your last comment is confusing. Most know full well that the doubled rate is an everlasting personal peeve. I and 5,000 non-city customers of Electric City U. had paid for their infrastructure well before Duke sold out to Anderson. We neither got nor get anything for that 100% subsidy of City residents water bills. We can’t even complain through the voting booth.
I can’t speak for the others, but I have no objection about paying for the distribution expansion IF the cost of it plus the cost of water is shared EQUALLY by ALL customers.
That’s seems fair, but since when did integrity (Moore promised a single rate to members of the State legislature) and a sense of equity enter into City Council decisions ?
As for hackles, please don’t confuse mine with the Senator’s
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Pappy,
There has to be a price for choosing to be an extreme-suburbanite. No one should expect to live further and further from City Limits and for water lines to be extended to his dwelling at no additional cost, or for the cost to be equally shared with the City dwellers.
As a City dweller, I appreciate the benefits of living in the City, and I’m willing to pay the additional taxes required by the City. However, I’m not willing to share in the cost of extending water lines to everyone, everywhere in the County.
There has to be a price for choosing to be an extreme-suburbanite. No one should expect to live further and further from City Limits and for water lines to be extended to his dwelling at no additional cost, or for the cost to be equally shared with the City dwellers.
As a City dweller, I appreciate the benefits of living in the City, and I’m willing to pay the additional taxes required by the City. However, I’m not willing to share in the cost of extending water lines to everyone, everywhere in the County.
Pappy,
There has to be a price for choosing to be an extreme-suburbanite. No one should expect to live further and further from City Limits and for water lines to be extended to his dwelling at no additional cost, or for the cost to be equally shared with the City dwellers.
As a City dweller, I appreciate the benefits of living in the City, and I’m willing to pay the additional taxes required by the City. However, I’m not willing to share in the cost of extending water lines to everyone, everywhere in the County.
- Art Kaldas
Art,
Why should you. After all, you have over 10,000 County residents emptying their pockets to the annual tune of a million dollars to subsidize your water bill at a rate that is 50% less than theirs.
Incidentally what is an 'extreme' suburbanite ? Is their a certain mileage away from a municipality that defines the term ?
I guess if one lives close enough to subsidize a City resident's water bill, one is no longer 'extreme'.
Pappy,
There has to be a price for choosing to be an extreme-suburbanite. No one should expect to live further and further from City Limits and for water lines to be extended to his dwelling at no additional cost, or for the cost to be equally shared with the City dwellers.
As a City dweller, I appreciate the benefits of living in the City, and I’m willing to pay the additional taxes required by the City. However, I’m not willing to share in the cost of extending water lines to everyone, everywhere in the County.
- Art Kaldas
Art, are you aware that those of us in the county who have NO water lines have been paying taxes for YEARS (Yes, YEARS) for the water and sewer lines in the rest of the county?? And the city is part of the county.
If you can now flush a toilet and run water in your sink at the same time, thank those of us in the areas with drying wells and no waterlines. It would be nice if we could get something to help us after all of our years of helping YOU
Incidentally what is an 'extreme' suburbanite ? Is their a certain mileage away from a municipality that defines the term ?
- PAPPY
Pappy,
According to the Census Bureau, “Extreme Commuters”, or “Extreme Suburbanites”, in the United States are those who travel at least 90 minutes each way to go to work. The term may not apply literally to Anderson County. However, everything is relative.
My source for the above information is an extremely interesting book titled “micro trends” by Mark Penn. The book talks about the gradual evolution of American life.
Art, are you aware that those of us in the county who have NO water lines have been paying taxes for YEARS (Yes, YEARS) for the water and sewer lines in the rest of the county?? And the city is part of the county.
If you can now flush a toilet and run water in your sink at the same time, thank those of us in the areas with drying wells and no waterlines. It would be nice if we could get something to help us after all of our years of helping YOU
- The Queen
Queen,
I do understand your need for water lines, and I do appreciate your sense of frustration. However, we are dealing with a dilemma.
Mr. Larry Greer, attempting to help some of his rural constituents, discovered that extending water lines to a few rural residents in his District would cost over $10 million. So, providing water service to every County resident would simply be cost prohibitive.
Art,
If I read Pappy's post correctly, his water lines were in place well before the City of Anderson purchased from Duke.
Double the rate in my opinion is almost criminal in his case.
If I read Pappy's post correctly, his water lines were in place well before the City of Anderson purchased from Duke.
Double the rate in my opinion is almost criminal in his case.
Art,
If I read Pappy's post correctly, his water lines were in place well before the City of Anderson purchased from Duke.
Double the rate in my opinion is almost criminal in his case.- hgmoore
H. G. Moore,
Almost criminal is still legal according to our State laws.
I personally do not like dual water rates. However, I equally dislike dual taxation. So, if the County/City Joint Committee finds a solution to both issues, I would support it.
Art, are you aware that those of us in the county who have NO water lines have been paying taxes for YEARS (Yes, YEARS) for the water and sewer lines in the rest of the county?? And the city is part of the county.
If you can now flush a toilet and run water in your sink at the same time, thank those of us in the areas with drying wells and no waterlines. It would be nice if we could get something to help us after all of our years of helping YOU
- The Queen
Queen in this instance I agree with you. I wonder if once again a breakdown of where my tax dollars are going (as shown on my tax bill) will reflect a millage for sewer that I don't have. I have heard a rumor that this year it has renamed as "economic development" on the tax bill.
Art,
If I read Pappy's post correctly, his water lines were in place well before the City of Anderson purchased from Duke.
Double the rate in my opinion is almost criminal in his case.- hgmoore
H. G. Moore,
Almost criminal is still legal according to our State laws.
I personally do not like dual water rates. However, I equally dislike dual taxation. So, if the County/City Joint Committee finds a solution to both issues, I would support it.
- Art Kaldas
Art,
Almost crimminal is morally and ethically repugnant, however. Although Anderson maybe the buckle of the Bible belt, it seems filled with what Reverend West wrote about--one day Christians.Those that practice religion on Sunday and then forget about it the other six days.
Art, you are missing one important factor between your problem and ours. You have representation on the County Council. You can apply a voter's pressure and make your Councilman accountable. The geographically segregated 5,000 custromers of Anderson's utility are disenfranchised. We have no City Council representation, so the City can and does whatever they wish with the price of water and we must pay or move out.
Happy Birthday, Art!- The Queen
Queen,
Thank you. I am proud and appreciative to have fiends like you.
Today I’m sixty one years old, and it has been a very interesting journey so far.
Let me add my sincere wishes for many many more birthday celebrations.
Stay well, live long and laugh a lot.
John
Stay well, live long and laugh a lot.
John
Nick, there is no ‘market’ for water distribution. There is only one system available. The ACJWS is a monopoly, without competition. Since water is the essence of life, to stop its distribution is to completely stop further growth in those affected areas of Anderson County.
Pappy: It has been a while since I matched wits with you, but I must say that in this case I think you've simply misunderstood. I wasn't suggesting that there was a water market. What I was suggesting was that cheap water distribution "subsidizes" the suburban real estate market. I cede your point that you are being charged double already, so that doesn't sound like a subsidy to you, but in that case ther whole city/county double taxation thing is meddling with the real estate market in the greater anderson area.
It should also be pointed out that Clemson and Anderson voluntarily joined the conglomerate of retail water systems that bought the ACTWS from Duke. It would be interesting to read the agreement between the buyers, but I would guess that it clearly spelled out how the cost of future expansion would be shared. If it doesn’t then that would just be another screw up by these business amateurs. After all, Duke screwed them out of over ten million dollars in connection with the deteriorated condition of the infrastructure.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Electric City Utility is a retail seller of water that it buys from ACTWS. ACTWS delivers water to the water utilities which then resells it to homes.
Great point. If the city was silly enough to buy into a water distribution business that was going to cost them so much -- without a clear return -- then it was a dumb business decision.
The legal/regulatory issues surrounding utilities are really weird in this State. I don’t know what regulations, if any, cover water distribution systems. However for water utilities there is the SCPSC which regulates investor-owned utilities. But because the Home Rule Act permits Municipalities to own utilities, the SCPSC has no authority over them. Only the Legislature and the State Constitution can regulate these utilities and the good old boys in Columbia aren’t about to hang up this Municipal golden goose with the noose of cumbersome regulations.
I and 5,000 non-city customers of Electric City U. had paid for their infrastructure well before Duke sold out to Anderson. We neither got nor get anything for that 100% subsidy of City residents water bills. We can’t even complain through the voting booth. I can’t speak for the others, but I have no objection about paying for the distribution expansion IF the cost of it plus the cost of water is shared EQUALLY by ALL customers.
Fair points.
Pappy: It has been a while since I matched wits with you, but I must say that in this case I think you've simply misunderstood. I wasn't suggesting that there was a water market. What I was suggesting was that cheap water distribution "subsidizes" the suburban real estate market. I cede your point that you are being charged double already, so that doesn't sound like a subsidy to you, but in that case ther whole city/county double taxation thing is meddling with the real estate market in the greater anderson area.
- NickCharalambous
Trying to match wits was never my intention, Nick.
I did misunderstand your point. Thanks for clarifying.
Pappy,I hate to hijack your post, but had to after reading Nicks column.
NICK you should be ASHAMED of yourself, How is Romneys being a Mormen somehow make him not a Christian. The very name Christian means you have to believe in Christ, Mormens do, therefore they are Christians.
Imagine how schocked I was to read such drivel coming from an educated person. I though I'd heard everything when I was told I wasn't a christian because I was Catholic. But how a supposedly educated well read person write such tripe is beyond
belief.
You owe Mr. Romney and your readers an apology
NICK you should be ASHAMED of yourself, How is Romneys being a Mormen somehow make him not a Christian. The very name Christian means you have to believe in Christ, Mormens do, therefore they are Christians.
Imagine how schocked I was to read such drivel coming from an educated person. I though I'd heard everything when I was told I wasn't a christian because I was Catholic. But how a supposedly educated well read person write such tripe is beyond
belief.
You owe Mr. Romney and your readers an apology
Art,
Almost crimminal is morally and ethically repugnant, however. Although Anderson maybe the buckle of the Bible belt, it seems filled with what Reverend West wrote about--one day Christians.Those that practice religion on Sunday and then forget about it the other six days.
Art, you are missing one important factor between your problem and ours. You have representation on the County Council. You can apply a voter's pressure and make your Councilman accountable. The geographically segregated 5,000 custromers of Anderson's utility are disenfranchised. We have no City Council representation, so the City can and does whatever they wish with the price of water and we must pay or move out.- PAPPY
No matter WHOM would be representative of those folks, the bottom line is the recovery of the exhorbitant expenditure for this old and overly-priced Edsel. And the law of economics says the end users will be the logical choice for recovery of these expenses. No one on any council is going to help a select few unless there's a big payoff in a manila envelope.
A better deferment to this arguement is to drill a deep- water well and say skru you Electric City Water rates!
Art,
Almost crimminal is morally and ethically repugnant, however. Although Anderson maybe the buckle of the Bible belt, it seems filled with what Reverend West wrote about--one day Christians.Those that practice religion on Sunday and then forget about it the other six days.
Art, you are missing one important factor between your problem and ours. You have representation on the County Council. You can apply a voter's pressure and make your Councilman accountable. The geographically segregated 5,000 custromers of Anderson's utility are disenfranchised. We have no City Council representation, so the City can and does whatever they wish with the price of water and we must pay or move out.- PAPPY
No matter WHOM would be representative of those folks, the bottom line is the recovery of the exhorbitant expenditure for this old and overly-priced Edsel. And the law of economics says the end users will be the logical choice for recovery of these expenses. No one on any council is going to help a select few unless there's a big payoff in a manila envelope.
A better deferment to this arguement is to drill a deep- water well and say skru you Electric City Water rates!- wyatt1sc
wyatt1sc,
That would be great except the County won't let me. The law says that if you have a water line in front of your house you can't drill.
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