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AN OUTRAGE

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If we lose our freedom, they win.

- ed evans



Fixed.

Wow, I'm glad you aren't in charge of things. The first sign of any threat to America, and Ed has his panties at his feet, ready to take one for our safety. No thanks.
This country is founded on certain 'inalienable rights'. If you give those away, even just for times of war, you won't have any rights, because there will be perpetual war.

WMDs wasn't just faulty intelligence, it was FIXED intelligence.
I remember thinking that they were full of shit about WMD before the war started. Especially since that Hans Blix fellow seemed to think the US was full of shit on that claim. Plus, why would they go out of their way to smear Joe Wilson *cough Scooter Libby cough*, if they DIDN"T know the intel was cooked?
It's because the leadership (sic) of this country WANTED to go to war. Period.
That's also why they never gave the Congress the opportunity to vote on a war.
They wanted this war because they never had to fight one. They thought it would be GREAT for the middle east (why?) and somehow GREAT for America. So far, it has only been GREAT for military contractors. Many of whom contribute big bucks to republican campaigns.
Was it a conspiracy? I doubt it (that would require too much competence), but it's something close. A little to reach-around-y, if you know what I mean.

Oh, BTW, what has George Bush done that he's been successful at? Other than getting elected to the Governorship of Texas and a second term as POTUS (first term was stolen).
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1468 posts
Where did you get that quote, Jack? I don't think that quote is correct. Is it something you fixed?

Hey folks, go back and read my post. I think the quote has had a bit of engineering.
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Spare the advice: Wise Men don't need it; fools won't heed it. (Unsure)
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1468 posts
Wow, I'm glad you aren't in charge of things. The first sign of any threat to America, and Ed has his panties at his feet, ready to take one for our safety. No thanks.


Your crudeness becomes you, Jack. No one is surprised.

This country is founded on certain 'inalienable rights'. If you give those away, even just for times of war, you won't have any rights, because there will be perpetual war.
Wrongo, buck wheat. Rights have been suspended, during war when leaders felt they should be. And if you'd paid attention you'd see I was talking about non us citizens

WMDs wasn't just faulty intelligence, it was FIXED intelligence.

Well, gracious sakes
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Spare the advice: Wise Men don't need it; fools won't heed it. (Unsure)
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114 posts

You are right in that Al Qaeda will exploit our system of laws and judicial protections. However, we cannot sacrifice freedom in order to save it. That defeats the whole purpose of why we are fighting.


Ordinarily I'd agree. But we cannot give the folks that would destroy our way of life the freedoms we have. If they win, we lose our freedom. Just don't let them get away behind ours. Sometimes you have to remove a limb from a tree to save the tree. Sometimes we have to suspend some rights to survive.

- ed evans



Yikes! As serious as the threat is from terrorism, I don't think we are anywhere near that point yet.


Likewise, there is no guarantee that heavy handed tactics will work either. The Russians have been trying this for years in Chechnya, and it hasn't solved their terrorism problem.


But you cannot give up the fight. And as for interogation to save American lives, heavy handed stuff should be allowed. They will not talk to us, but if they think someone, say an Iraqi will do the interogation, they'll sing.

- ed evans



"Heavy handed" tactics are problematic for several reasons. First of all, they are immoral. Secondly, they do more harm than good when the Iraqi people start believing that we (or those we support) are no better than Saddam, Iran, or Al Qaeda. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, they are ineffective at getting accurate information.

The Germans found this out during World War II. The Gestapo would torture prisoners, and they would lie to them to stop the pain. They got little useful information. Meanwhile, the Luftwaffe treated their prisoners relatively well. They would try to befriend their captives. They would get the prisoners' guard down and they would tell them all sorts of accurate things without even realizing they were squealing.



And yes, I do believe that alleged terrorists should have access to the courts. This is necessary so that we can sort out the ones who are actually terrorists, and should be punished, from those who were just mistaken for terrorists, and should be freed.

I agree that we should not detain anyone longer than neccesssary. Maybe the Military tribunals to sort out the non terrorist? But Courts and a fair trial for ones that want to destroy our way of life? Never!

- ed evans



Perhaps those who want to destroy our way of life do not deserve a fair trial, but we cannot determine whether or not a person wants to destroy our way of life unless we give them a fair trial.

And yes, the justice system works. Zacharias Moussaoui was tried, convicted, and sentenced to death for his role in the 9/11 attacks.
member
56 posts
Two things:
The United States invaded a sovereign nation under a false pretense. You can continue to argue about Saddam being a threat, wanting to build a democratic conerstone for the Middle East, stopping the terrorism threat before it comes to our shores etc. etc. etc. It's all a big pile of smelly crap. WE INVADED A SOVEREIGN NATION UNDER A FALSE PRETENSE. How can anyone not be enraged at this???? It amazes me to no end how people, including Bush attempt to justify it all. Was Saddam a bad guy?...yea, but so is Omar al-Bashir, Kim Jong-il, Than Shwe, Robert Mugabe, Islam Karimov, Hu Jintao, King Abdullah, Saparmurat Niyazov, Seyed Ali Khamane’I, and Teodoro Obiang Nguema, all dicatators with documented human rights violations including killing of innocent civilians. Why have we not invaded Sudan, North Korea, Burma, Zimbabwe, Uzbekistan, China, Saudi Arabia, Turkmenistan, Iran, or Equatorial Guinea? I believe that none of these dictators threatened GW's daddy...but that's a whole different discussion.

Second thing:
I believe that Iraq is in worse shape today than when Saddam was in power. I have formed this opinion by getting information from sources other than Fox News. Some of the better ones:
http://www.khilafah.com/kcom/
http://readmirror.com/mirror/
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/55ABE840-AC30-41D2-BDC9-06BBE2A36665.htm

We have wasted billions of dollars and thousands of American lives on a lost cause. The US will not, can not "win" in Iraq. We are fighting a mindset that is thousands of years in the making. We can't begin to comprehend this mindset because of the cultural chasm that exists. Muslims kill each other because one sect believes that the direct decendents of Muhammed shoud be the leaders and the other sect believes that the leaders should be elected. That's the only difference. That's kind of like the difference between Pentacostal Holliness and Assemblies of God (a difference in how sanctification occurs). They kill each other over this, not argue, not debate, but kill. This will not change....ever. Even Muslims that I have spoken with agree, countries in the Middle East need dictators to maintain some sort of control. Our perspective is that we should all just get along in a nice big happy democratic society and we can't understand why everyone doesn't want the same ideal. The US is unique, we are the greatest country in the world (I'm a little worried about China) but we are also the most arrogant. I believe that we are reaping the harvest form the seeds sown over the past 60 years. We have fostered relationships with terrible dicatators (Saddam, Shah of Iran, Marcos, Somoza to name a few). For an exhaustive list see: http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/dictators.htm I wonder why almost every Muslim believes that the only reason we are in Iraq is the oil. We must change or tactics. To do this, we must change how we perceive other cultures. To do this, we must open our closed minds.
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The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
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http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/55ABE840-AC30-41D2-BDC9-06BBE2A36665.htm

Paul, you're getting some of your information from al-Jazeera? The Jihad Gazette? Well, that's all I need to know. I wondered where some of you had been picking up your daily talking points. Now I know. You should listen to Neil Boortz occasionally. He's one of the leading spokesmen for Libertarians nowadays, and even HE knows al Jazeera is full of it.

You should also pay more attention to Andrew, PAPPY, Jack and our other lefties for your war information. They're all experts in international affairs and military strategy because of their years of involvement in such things. Why, they even know how to selectively copy and paste stories from the Associated Press. Such wisdom!

I'll bet if you asked any one of them to answer that dimwit's earlier question about why Osama bin Laden is still breathing valuable oxygen, they could probably explain to you that bin Laden is probably in Pakistan (which, as I'm sure all of the geography experts on this blog know, borders Afghanistan), that Pakistan is a SOVEREIGN NATION that has actually been our ally in the War on Terror (particularly against the Taliban and al Qaeda), that Pakistan's president has a somewhat shaky hold on power owing to his own ethnic rivalries, that if WE take it upon ourselves to send troops into that SOVEREIGN NATION in pursuit of bin Laden is may very well leads to HIS overthrow, which would create a power vacuum taht could complicate a tenuous and somewhat shaky truce between Pakistan and Indian, who have fought several wars over a region the two sort of share called Kashmir, and both of whom just happen to have NUCLEAR WEAPONS. But, to explain all that to the knucklehead who thinks we should just INVADE Pakistan to get bin Laden would probably give him/her a headache - and God knows there's plenty of room in that empty head for an ache, so we probably shouldn't push our luck. Just let him/her go on thinking that we should just send a couple of divisions into Pakistan regardless of the consequences. Just thank God he/she isn't in charge of anything significant.

Actually, it never ceases to amaze me that so many many of our bloggers seem to know more about strategy and tactics than the combined wisdom of our military planners and soldiers, who think we're actually WINNING the War on Terror. Silly people. Why, somebody on here earlier on this thread even asked if it's even a WAR we're fighting and if we're maybe fighting in the wrong place. Let me see if I can answer that. My son lost his best friend to a bullet in a firefight near Ramadi on December 5, 2006. That bullet was not fired by a friend. It would seem to me that if you are a U.S. Marine, and you're in a place where a whole lot of people are trying to shoot you and blow you up, you are PROBABLY in a war zone, and you have PROBABLY found the enemy. I could be wrong, though. I'm just not as smart as Petunia, who, as we all know, knows EVERYTHING.

Anyway, those local leftist bloggers who show their brilliance on here day, after day, after day are certainly better sources than al Jazeera - well, only slightly better, but better, nevertheless, because they at least PRETEND not to be playing cheap politics with our soldiers' lives.

At least they don't hate all Americans. Just Republicans, Christians, soldiers and anybody who thinks we have a right to defend ourselves against people whose stated goal in life is to kill all of us infidels and eliminate our way of life. Some on this blog may not see that as a threat. I'm sorry. I do.

And now, with that, I am going to withdraw from this thread, this group, and this blog. I have had all the liberal bullshit I can take. From now on, I will spend my time on a blog where at least the posters are SMART enough to know that George W. Bush CANNOT run for another term as President of the United States, that he IS NOT on any ballot in 2008, and that TAKING CONTINUED SHOTS AT HIM AND THE U.S. ARMED FORCES purely for cheap political points is undermining our Armed Forces, endangering the lives of those soldiers who are, indeed, in a war, and can certainly accomplish the mission they were sent on by an overwhelming vote of both houses of Congress in 2003.

Don't misunderstand me here. An American citizen has every right to criticize the President, the military, Congress, the Supreme Court, or anybody else he or she wants to criticize. But YOU DO NOT HAVE RIGHT TO SURRENDER TO THE ENEMY ON MY BEHALF, and you do not have a right to be part of a DOMESTIC debate that has my son asking me, in one of his infrequent telephone calls from Iraq, if I thought it would cause a problem if he wore his uniform to the school he graduated from when he gets back stateside. I told him there are obviously many here who will show him disrespect, some who will call him names and spit at him - just as they did when many of our soldiers came home from Vietnam - but I still firmly believe that MOST Americans understand we are at war, that Iraq is part of that overall war, and that our Armed Forces are doing everything that's being asked of them and more to win that war.

We have not lost the War on Terror. We WILL not lose the War on Terror, because if we do, Art Kaldas will be the only one here who will be able to read this blog two days after we lose. For now, I can still read it, though, and I don't like what I'm reading. It makes it hard for me to encourage that son of mine, and - unlike many of you - I certainly don't want to undermine the morale of a young man who puts his life on the line every day so some of you can continue to run our mouths in public about what losers you think he and his brothers in arms are.

I can hear the backlash now. "JD, how can you SAY such a thing."

Easy. It's true. That's exactly what you're saying. Y'all claim you support the troops. No you don't. Hell, some of you are almost GLEEFUL that the Army is having trouble meeting its recruiting goals because of the domestic gloom and doom spread by the anti-America, anti-military, anti-war media and so-called AMERICANS we have demeaning their mission, their goals, their tactics, their leaders and their very level of intellilgence of anybody who would actually VOLUNTEER to defend the United State of America in a war. And you seem absolutely DELIGHTED to find out that an OUTPATIENT CLINIC at Walter Reed Army Hospital might not meet your lofty DEMOCRAT PARTY goals for such failities, giving you one more thing to bash the Commander in Chief over the head with and one more thing to use to demoralize the troops. (By the way, the first time I ever saw the inside of a Veterans Hospital - Oteen in Asheville - was in the mid 1960s. It sucked then. If I'm not mistaken, that same DEMOCRAT PARTY consistently held the power of the purse in Congress from 1954 through 1994. Republicans held that power from 1995 through December of last year. Seems to me that BOTH PARTIES have neglected that system for about, oh, FIFTY YEARS.)

Been real. Been fun, mostly. But I can no longer hold my tongue while you dumbasses demean my son, our military, our President, my God, and our country. Perhaps everybody should take a deep breath, try to look at the big picture, try to look past the next election, and actually get something ACCOMPLISHED for this great nation.

I suspect that won't happen, though. Y'all are going to keep patting each other on the backs, getting your news from al Jazeera and CNN, talking about what Constitutional scholars you all are because you know there's a "wall of separation between church and state" in the U.S. Constitution, even though Thomas Jefferson didn't coin that phrase until more than 20 years after the Constitution was ratified. (And, for what it's worth, that "wall of separation" if it exists is there to protect the CHURCH from the STATE, not the STATE from the CHURCH.)

You'll keep patting each others' backs and licking each others behinds until you convince each other that you're all right, and the rest of the world is wrong, and that's just the way it is. (And oddly enough, you will continue to convince yourselfs that Anderson County leans to the LEFT, despite the overwhelming evidence that just the opposite is true, and that you are in the majority in your county.)

Meanwhile, everything this nation was founded on will get turned on its head, and our will to defend ourselves in future wars will be so diminished that we may never again be willing to defend our national interests against anybody or anything. Is that your goal? It certainly seems that way to me sometimes.

Since I joined this blog, I have almost always tried to find some middle ground in our debates here. Often, I have started out right of center and ventured FAR, FAR, to the right while playing Devil's Advocate to keep the debate going. It usually works. But on the issue of the War in Iraq, and on issues of religion in public life, there IS NO MIDDLE GROUND HERE. The compromise position on both issues is perfectly clear, but none of you want to even take a look at it.

Goodbye. And may God help us all of any of you are our hope for the future of a continued free and sovereign United States of America.


J.D. Tippitt, police officer, City of Dallas, born September 18, 1924, died November 22, 1963.

J.D. Tippett, blogger, The Cocklebur, born June 16, 2006, died March 3, 2007.

Both gunned down while attempting to defend the American Presidency against enemy sympathizers.

member
1141 posts
What a crybaby...

Nobody would spit on your son or call him names. Every person on this blog would be honored to shake his hand and thank him for his service.

Grow up, JD. Criticism of the war doesn't equal an attack on the soldiers, and it sure as hell doesn't mean we sympathize with the enemy.

That sort of talk is WHY we liberals are so persistent about criticism of this war... You want to paint us as the enemy and you're so busy doing that you can't even remember the real enemy.

We are not the enemy.
Not the liberals. Not the Democrats. Not the Sunni or Shia. Not Saddam. Not Iraqis. Not Muslims. Not our troops or our Vice President. Not our President.

The enemy is Al Qaeda. The enemies are the radical imams preaching hate in London, and Paris, and all over Europe. The enemies are the young jihadists who plant IEDs on the side of roads in Iraq and shoot at our soldiers in Afghanistan.

You're so blinded with false patriotism and irrational devotion to a partisan ideology, you can't see it.
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JD, You tell your son that many many many Americans would be proud to shake his hand and that of any vet. I for one totally agree with your views on this war. If we do not win it over there no one here will be allowed to view anything.

As for suspending freedoms, I don't agree with suspending any freedoms for US CITIZENS, we can suspend all the freedoms in the world for people who are not US CITIZENS. Those people have not taken the oath and therefore are not entitled to our freedoms.

JD is not a crybaby in fact considering his son is over there he has more right to talk than anyone else on this blog. If JD's son is questioning our commitment, doesn't that tell all of you that maybe just maybe all of this "lets get out now, we can't win stuff is doing exactly what the muslim extremeists want. They have always said that Americans haven't got the heart to fight, make it to tuff and they will fold. Well I guess they are right to some extent, some americans will fall for any load of crap that is handed to them just so that a president they didn't vote for could be made an ass, Well guess what folks, I have never voted for a winner in a presidental election, probably never will, I usually vote Libertatian. I do however vote and God willing I always will. Unless of course all of you brave people who would rather give in to the terrorist than see this thing thru to the end and support our troops and that means knocking off all the garbage about we can't win and lets cut our losses talk about crybabies
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Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.” William Pitt
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114 posts
Whoa, JD. Liberals and libertarians are not the enemy. Al Qaeda is.

Yes, people are shooting at your son and his friends. People tend to shoot at soldiers who invade their country, no matter how well intentioned these soldiers may be. Now, if your son, his friends, and the US military left Iraq, would they stop shooting at them, or would they just continue to shoot at them in a different country? It's safe to say we disagree on this point.

JD, most Americans, and certainly all the liberals on this blog, have nothing but respect for the men and women of our Armed Forces. However, it is our right and our duty as citizens to hold the civilian leadership accountable. Criticism of George W. Bush and the Republican Party is not anti-American does not demean or degrade the sacrifice and service of the men and women of our armed forces. The blog isn't that old, but I'd be willing to bet that you criticized Bill Clinton when he sent troops into Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, and even when he bombed Iraq and Afghanistan. However, no one would accuse you of hating America or siding with the enemy.

Because we do respect the troops and their service, we believe that outpatient or not, temporary or not, if even a single wounded soldier is being treated in a rat-infested, leaky, crumbling building, that is a disgrace and a dishonor to his or her service. Period. Don't defend the indefensible, JD.
member
56 posts

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/55ABE840-AC30-41D2-BDC9-06BBE2A36665.htm

Paul, you're getting some of your information from al-Jazeera? The Jihad Gazette? Well, that's all I need to know. I wondered where some of you had been picking up your daily talking points. Now I know. You should listen to Neil Boortz occasionally. He's one of the leading spokesmen for Libertarians nowadays, and even HE knows al Jazeera is full of it.

You should also pay more attention to Andrew, PAPPY, Jack and our other lefties for your war information. They're all experts in international affairs and military strategy because of their years of involvement in such things. Why, they even know how to selectively copy and paste stories from the Associated Press. Such wisdom!

I'll bet if you asked any one of them to answer that dimwit's earlier question about why Osama bin Laden is still breathing valuable oxygen, they could probably explain to you that bin Laden is probably in Pakistan (which, as I'm sure all of the geography experts on this blog know, borders Afghanistan), that Pakistan is a SOVEREIGN NATION that has actually been our ally in the War on Terror (particularly against the Taliban and al Qaeda), that Pakistan's president has a somewhat shaky hold on power owing to his own ethnic rivalries, that if WE take it upon ourselves to send troops into that SOVEREIGN NATION in pursuit of bin Laden is may very well leads to HIS overthrow, which would create a power vacuum taht could complicate a tenuous and somewhat shaky truce between Pakistan and Indian, who have fought several wars over a region the two sort of share called Kashmir, and both of whom just happen to have NUCLEAR WEAPONS. But, to explain all that to the knucklehead who thinks we should just INVADE Pakistan to get bin Laden would probably give him/her a headache - and God knows there's plenty of room in that empty head for an ache, so we probably shouldn't push our luck. Just let him/her go on thinking that we should just send a couple of divisions into Pakistan regardless of the consequences. Just thank God he/she isn't in charge of anything significant.

Actually, it never ceases to amaze me that so many many of our bloggers seem to know more about strategy and tactics than the combined wisdom of our military planners and soldiers, who think we're actually WINNING the War on Terror. Silly people. Why, somebody on here earlier on this thread even asked if it's even a WAR we're fighting and if we're maybe fighting in the wrong place. Let me see if I can answer that. My son lost his best friend to a bullet in a firefight near Ramadi on December 5, 2006. That bullet was not fired by a friend. It would seem to me that if you are a U.S. Marine, and you're in a place where a whole lot of people are trying to shoot you and blow you up, you are PROBABLY in a war zone, and you have PROBABLY found the enemy. I could be wrong, though. I'm just not as smart as Petunia, who, as we all know, knows EVERYTHING.

Anyway, those local leftist bloggers who show their brilliance on here day, after day, after day are certainly better sources than al Jazeera - well, only slightly better, but better, nevertheless, because they at least PRETEND not to be playing cheap politics with our soldiers' lives.

At least they don't hate all Americans. Just Republicans, Christians, soldiers and anybody who thinks we have a right to defend ourselves against people whose stated goal in life is to kill all of us infidels and eliminate our way of life. Some on this blog may not see that as a threat. I'm sorry. I do.

And now, with that, I am going to withdraw from this thread, this group, and this blog. I have had all the liberal bullshit I can take. From now on, I will spend my time on a blog where at least the posters are SMART enough to know that George W. Bush CANNOT run for another term as President of the United States, that he IS NOT on any ballot in 2008, and that TAKING CONTINUED SHOTS AT HIM AND THE U.S. ARMED FORCES purely for cheap political points is undermining our Armed Forces, endangering the lives of those soldiers who are, indeed, in a war, and can certainly accomplish the mission they were sent on by an overwhelming vote of both houses of Congress in 2003.

Don't misunderstand me here. An American citizen has every right to criticize the President, the military, Congress, the Supreme Court, or anybody else he or she wants to criticize. But YOU DO NOT HAVE RIGHT TO SURRENDER TO THE ENEMY ON MY BEHALF, and you do not have a right to be part of a DOMESTIC debate that has my son asking me, in one of his infrequent telephone calls from Iraq, if I thought it would cause a problem if he wore his uniform to the school he graduated from when he gets back stateside. I told him there are obviously many here who will show him disrespect, some who will call him names and spit at him - just as they did when many of our soldiers came home from Vietnam - but I still firmly believe that MOST Americans understand we are at war, that Iraq is part of that overall war, and that our Armed Forces are doing everything that's being asked of them and more to win that war.

We have not lost the War on Terror. We WILL not lose the War on Terror, because if we do, Art Kaldas will be the only one here who will be able to read this blog two days after we lose. For now, I can still read it, though, and I don't like what I'm reading. It makes it hard for me to encourage that son of mine, and - unlike many of you - I certainly don't want to undermine the morale of a young man who puts his life on the line every day so some of you can continue to run our mouths in public about what losers you think he and his brothers in arms are.

I can hear the backlash now. "JD, how can you SAY such a thing."

Easy. It's true. That's exactly what you're saying. Y'all claim you support the troops. No you don't. Hell, some of you are almost GLEEFUL that the Army is having trouble meeting its recruiting goals because of the domestic gloom and doom spread by the anti-America, anti-military, anti-war media and so-called AMERICANS we have demeaning their mission, their goals, their tactics, their leaders and their very level of intellilgence of anybody who would actually VOLUNTEER to defend the United State of America in a war. And you seem absolutely DELIGHTED to find out that an OUTPATIENT CLINIC at Walter Reed Army Hospital might not meet your lofty DEMOCRAT PARTY goals for such failities, giving you one more thing to bash the Commander in Chief over the head with and one more thing to use to demoralize the troops. (By the way, the first time I ever saw the inside of a Veterans Hospital - Oteen in Asheville - was in the mid 1960s. It sucked then. If I'm not mistaken, that same DEMOCRAT PARTY consistently held the power of the purse in Congress from 1954 through 1994. Republicans held that power from 1995 through December of last year. Seems to me that BOTH PARTIES have neglected that system for about, oh, FIFTY YEARS.)

Been real. Been fun, mostly. But I can no longer hold my tongue while you dumbasses demean my son, our military, our President, my God, and our country. Perhaps everybody should take a deep breath, try to look at the big picture, try to look past the next election, and actually get something ACCOMPLISHED for this great nation.

I suspect that won't happen, though. Y'all are going to keep patting each other on the backs, getting your news from al Jazeera and CNN, talking about what Constitutional scholars you all are because you know there's a "wall of separation between church and state" in the U.S. Constitution, even though Thomas Jefferson didn't coin that phrase until more than 20 years after the Constitution was ratified. (And, for what it's worth, that "wall of separation" if it exists is there to protect the CHURCH from the STATE, not the STATE from the CHURCH.)

You'll keep patting each others' backs and licking each others behinds until you convince each other that you're all right, and the rest of the world is wrong, and that's just the way it is. (And oddly enough, you will continue to convince yourselfs that Anderson County leans to the LEFT, despite the overwhelming evidence that just the opposite is true, and that you are in the majority in your county.)

Meanwhile, everything this nation was founded on will get turned on its head, out our will to defend ourselves in future wars will be so diminished that we may never again be willing to defend our national interests against anybody or anything. Is that your goal? It certainly seems that way to me sometimes.

Since I joined this blog, I have almost always tried to find some middle ground in our debates here. Often, I have started out right of center and ventures FAR, FAR, to the right while playing Devil's Advocate to keep the debate going. It often works. But on the issue of the War in Iraq, and on issues of religion in public life, there IS NO MIDDLE GROUND HERE. The compromise position on both issues is perfectly clear, but none of you want to even take a look at it.

Goodbye. And may God help us all of any of you are our hope for the future of a continued free and sovereign United States of America.


J.D. Tippitt, police officer, City of Dallas, born September 18, 1924, died November 22, 1963.

J.D. Tippett, blogger, The Cocklebur, born June 16, 2006, died March 3, 2007.

Both gunned down while attempting to defend the American Presidency against enemy sympathizers.

- JDTippett



I do listen to Boortz, but then again he doesn't report the news he spouts his viewpoint with his own slant. I do read Al-Jazeera, not so much for facts, but for sentiment. My point is that if we choose to ignore anyone elses viewpoint or opinion we will find enemies everywhere, not just in the Middle East. It is time people with courage stand up and say that continually fighting in a situation that is lose-lose for the US is riduculous. The problem is that person is immediately labeled anti-American or Liberal or just ignorant. I believe that human life is sacred. I have a tremendous respect for anyone that has risked and or given their life for this country. My Father served this country for 30 years. Their lives are not given in vain as long as I have the ability to speak out against the governent. Our current president is the one that devalued the sacrifice, he is the one that has told me that for me to speak against the war is wrong, he is the one that continues to throw American lives into a meatgrinder that is called Iraq, thereby devaluing their worth. For me, their lives are too important, too sacred and too valued to maintain this farce. The reason I focus my ire on Bush is because he is our leader, he has the ability to realize the futillity of this war and change the course, but his ego is way too big for that to happen. Paint the picture of me anyway that you feel comfortable doing, but I believe:
1. The war in Iraq is wrong
2. The troops that are fighting and that have fought deserve every iota of respect, care, compassion, financial, and health care that this country can muster.

So, if you will provide me a way that I can reconcile these two beliefs without sounding un American, please let me know.
__________________
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
admin
3111 posts
JD, you do yourself a disservice to call me a leftist.
I am a liberal in some opinions and a conservative in others. I guess you are literally correct since I do write with my left hand.
No I am not an expert in international affairs nor military strategy and never claimed so. But may I add, neither are you.

The Pakistan situation is odd. The present administration claims to abhor military dictators, particularly those with nukes. yet kisses this one’s butt. Musharraf has made peace with our enemy, Taliban war chiefs. He has made a hero of his county’s nuclear scientist who gave secrets to N. Korea and Iran.
You talk about not invading SOVEREIGN NATIONS with nuclear weapons forgetting that Iraq was a sovereign nation ( without nuclear weapons ) and we didn’t hesitate to invade it.

In Petunia’s defense, I am certain that she doesn’t believe she knows everything.

I can only talk for myself, but I do not hate Republicans, Christians, Soldiers nor you. However I do disagree with them sometimes. I do respect Republicans , Christians and Soldiers and would defend with my life their right to disagree with me.

JD, you know it is the American way to take shots at the President, God knows Clinton took more than his share, particularly in his last term. I am sure Bush can handle them. But I am mystified by your statement that anyone is taking cheap shots at the US Armed Forces. You constantly have a deaf ear to our continuing comments of support for these service people.

JD, I never thought of you as one that would give up on a verbal argument. I know for myself, and suspect for others, that I have never personalized our disagreements. I have always respected your points and would sorely miss them. I think Ed would feel abandoned as I would if Jack dropped out.

Stay away from certain Forums but DO NOT leave the blog. You are an important part of what makes it tick and I fear it may become enfeebled without your contributions.

Don’t quit us. . .

"...and so it goes." KV
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ENJOY THE RIDE, THERE IS NO RETURN TICKET. CARLIN
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Pappy, JD may be gone , but he will resurface under another name. He has invested too much time and energy on this blog and will not be content to sit on the sidelines.He cannot see the forest for the trees and nothing anyone says will change that.Those of us who oppose the war do not oppose the troops. In fact, it is probably just the opposite.Bring ' em home.
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I was unaware that I was pontificating, JD. I am in a unique position to be informed as things happen in the army medical corps. I did not know that by wanting the "troops" to have the best of everything that I was being disloyal to POTUS and wanting the conflict in Iraq to fail. I do see it as an exercise in futility but I am willing for someone to prove me wrong. I have traveled many miles since my military family has been stationed abroad and everytime I see an American soldier I tell them "Thank you for all you do for us" On severeral long flights I have had discussions with various soldiers. I never question their reason for doing what they do. I listen and then tell them that I hope that their service in the mid east will not be required much longer. I have never had any of them tell me that given enough time this area can be turned into a self sufficient Democracy. They just want to come home to the USA where suicide bombers fighting for religious superiority are not the "norm" YET.
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Ed, you're right I was being Crass.
It was with a purpose, though. I am sick and tired of the media and the right wing establishment making liberals and others who are anti-war out to be sissies
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http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/55ABE840-AC30-41D2-BDC9-06BBE2A36665.htm

Paul, you're getting some of your information from al-Jazeera? The Jihad Gazette? Well, that's all I need to know. I wondered where some of you had been picking up your daily talking points. Now I know. You should listen to Neil Boortz occasionally. He's one of the leading spokesmen for Libertarians nowadays, and even HE knows al Jazeera is full of it.

You should also pay more attention to Andrew, PAPPY, Jack and our other lefties for your war information. They're all experts in international affairs and military strategy because of their years of involvement in such things. Why, they even know how to selectively copy and paste stories from the Associated Press. Such wisdom!

I'll bet if you asked any one of them to answer that dimwit's earlier question about why Osama bin Laden is still breathing valuable oxygen, they could probably explain to you that bin Laden is probably in Pakistan (which, as I'm sure all of the geography experts on this blog know, borders Afghanistan), that Pakistan is a SOVEREIGN NATION that has actually been our ally in the War on Terror (particularly against the Taliban and al Qaeda), that Pakistan's president has a somewhat shaky hold on power owing to his own ethnic rivalries, that if WE take it upon ourselves to send troops into that SOVEREIGN NATION in pursuit of bin Laden is may very well leads to HIS overthrow, which would create a power vacuum taht could complicate a tenuous and somewhat shaky truce between Pakistan and Indian, who have fought several wars over a region the two sort of share called Kashmir, and both of whom just happen to have NUCLEAR WEAPONS. But, to explain all that to the knucklehead who thinks we should just INVADE Pakistan to get bin Laden would probably give him/her a headache - and God knows there's plenty of room in that empty head for an ache, so we probably shouldn't push our luck. Just let him/her go on thinking that we should just send a couple of divisions into Pakistan regardless of the consequences. Just thank God he/she isn't in charge of anything significant.

Actually, it never ceases to amaze me that so many many of our bloggers seem to know more about strategy and tactics than the combined wisdom of our military planners and soldiers, who think we're actually WINNING the War on Terror. Silly people. Why, somebody on here earlier on this thread even asked if it's even a WAR we're fighting and if we're maybe fighting in the wrong place. Let me see if I can answer that. My son lost his best friend to a bullet in a firefight near Ramadi on December 5, 2006. That bullet was not fired by a friend. It would seem to me that if you are a U.S. Marine, and you're in a place where a whole lot of people are trying to shoot you and blow you up, you are PROBABLY in a war zone, and you have PROBABLY found the enemy. I could be wrong, though. I'm just not as smart as Petunia, who, as we all know, knows EVERYTHING.

Anyway, those local leftist bloggers who show their brilliance on here day, after day, after day are certainly better sources than al Jazeera - well, only slightly better, but better, nevertheless, because they at least PRETEND not to be playing cheap politics with our soldiers' lives.

At least they don't hate all Americans. Just Republicans, Christians, soldiers and anybody who thinks we have a right to defend ourselves against people whose stated goal in life is to kill all of us infidels and eliminate our way of life. Some on this blog may not see that as a threat. I'm sorry. I do.

And now, with that, I am going to withdraw from this thread, this group, and this blog. I have had all the liberal bullshit I can take. From now on, I will spend my time on a blog where at least the posters are SMART enough to know that George W. Bush CANNOT run for another term as President of the United States, that he IS NOT on any ballot in 2008, and that TAKING CONTINUED SHOTS AT HIM AND THE U.S. ARMED FORCES purely for cheap political points is undermining our Armed Forces, endangering the lives of those soldiers who are, indeed, in a war, and can certainly accomplish the mission they were sent on by an overwhelming vote of both houses of Congress in 2003.

Don't misunderstand me here. An American citizen has every right to criticize the President, the military, Congress, the Supreme Court, or anybody else he or she wants to criticize. But YOU DO NOT HAVE RIGHT TO SURRENDER TO THE ENEMY ON MY BEHALF, and you do not have a right to be part of a DOMESTIC debate that has my son asking me, in one of his infrequent telephone calls from Iraq, if I thought it would cause a problem if he wore his uniform to the school he graduated from when he gets back stateside. I told him there are obviously many here who will show him disrespect, some who will call him names and spit at him - just as they did when many of our soldiers came home from Vietnam - but I still firmly believe that MOST Americans understand we are at war, that Iraq is part of that overall war, and that our Armed Forces are doing everything that's being asked of them and more to win that war.

We have not lost the War on Terror. We WILL not lose the War on Terror, because if we do, Art Kaldas will be the only one here who will be able to read this blog two days after we lose. For now, I can still read it, though, and I don't like what I'm reading. It makes it hard for me to encourage that son of mine, and - unlike many of you - I certainly don't want to undermine the morale of a young man who puts his life on the line every day so some of you can continue to run our mouths in public about what losers you think he and his brothers in arms are.

I can hear the backlash now. "JD, how can you SAY such a thing."

Easy. It's true. That's exactly what you're saying. Y'all claim you support the troops. No you don't. Hell, some of you are almost GLEEFUL that the Army is having trouble meeting its recruiting goals because of the domestic gloom and doom spread by the anti-America, anti-military, anti-war media and so-called AMERICANS we have demeaning their mission, their goals, their tactics, their leaders and their very level of intellilgence of anybody who would actually VOLUNTEER to defend the United State of America in a war. And you seem absolutely DELIGHTED to find out that an OUTPATIENT CLINIC at Walter Reed Army Hospital might not meet your lofty DEMOCRAT PARTY goals for such failities, giving you one more thing to bash the Commander in Chief over the head with and one more thing to use to demoralize the troops. (By the way, the first time I ever saw the inside of a Veterans Hospital - Oteen in Asheville - was in the mid 1960s. It sucked then. If I'm not mistaken, that same DEMOCRAT PARTY consistently held the power of the purse in Congress from 1954 through 1994. Republicans held that power from 1995 through December of last year. Seems to me that BOTH PARTIES have neglected that system for about, oh, FIFTY YEARS.)

Been real. Been fun, mostly. But I can no longer hold my tongue while you dumbasses demean my son, our military, our President, my God, and our country. Perhaps everybody should take a deep breath, try to look at the big picture, try to look past the next election, and actually get something ACCOMPLISHED for this great nation.

I suspect that won't happen, though. Y'all are going to keep patting each other on the backs, getting your news from al Jazeera and CNN, talking about what Constitutional scholars you all are because you know there's a "wall of separation between church and state" in the U.S. Constitution, even though Thomas Jefferson didn't coin that phrase until more than 20 years after the Constitution was ratified. (And, for what it's worth, that "wall of separation" if it exists is there to protect the CHURCH from the STATE, not the STATE from the CHURCH.)

You'll keep patting each others' backs and licking each others behinds until you convince each other that you're all right, and the rest of the world is wrong, and that's just the way it is. (And oddly enough, you will continue to convince yourselfs that Anderson County leans to the LEFT, despite the overwhelming evidence that just the opposite is true, and that you are in the majority in your county.)

Meanwhile, everything this nation was founded on will get turned on its head, and our will to defend ourselves in future wars will be so diminished that we may never again be willing to defend our national interests against anybody or anything. Is that your goal? It certainly seems that way to me sometimes.

Since I joined this blog, I have almost always tried to find some middle ground in our debates here. Often, I have started out right of center and ventured FAR, FAR, to the right while playing Devil's Advocate to keep the debate going. It usually works. But on the issue of the War in Iraq, and on issues of religion in public life, there IS NO MIDDLE GROUND HERE. The compromise position on both issues is perfectly clear, but none of you want to even take a look at it.

Goodbye. And may God help us all of any of you are our hope for the future of a continued free and sovereign United States of America.


J.D. Tippitt, police officer, City of Dallas, born September 18, 1924, died November 22, 1963.

J.D. Tippett, blogger, The Cocklebur, born June 16, 2006, died March 3, 2007.

Both gunned down while attempting to defend the American Presidency against enemy sympathizers.

- JDTippett



Sheesh, talk about your cut and run.
JD, I love you, and most of what you have to say is brilliant and amusing, even if it is wrongheaded.
Sadly, this time you aren't playing devil's advocate, and I think you got hurt.
Sorry.
Did you ever participate in our prolonged military action in Vietnam?
I just wonder because apparently we were winning that war, too. Until we left. And then a miraculous thing happened, the people of VIetnam got to choose their own style of government. It just wasn't what we wanted for them. Did it suck for some people. Damn right. Was it the right thing to (for us to leave)? Damn right. Why? Because it is not the place of the US to go involving itself the military affairs of every country in the world. We are not "team america: world police". To think that we get to tell the rest of the world how to live and govern themselves is the height of arrogance.
Now, we gone and overthrown a regime that was evil, no doubt, but it was also one of the very few reasons for stability in that particular region.
The only way to keep a hotbed like Iraq together is with a (very) strong man government.
Now we have removed that stability and a civil war has ensued. I don't want to be 'mr. armchair strategist' here, but I knew it would happen. The rift between Sunni and Shia is thousands of years of bad blood. It is something that you, nor I, nor (apparently) our president can understand.
The reason your son gets shot at are threefold. One, he is part of what many Iraqis see as an invading army. I mean how would you feel if Canada invading the US, hanged George Bush, and said, "now you heathens will get some socialized medicine"? You'd probably load up your .45 and go shoot some hosers, eh? Why? Because people don' like to be invaded.
The second reason is that a major US presence in the area is great for Al-Quaeda types since it gives them more recruits, and it means the fight has come to them, so they don't have to buy all those expensive plane tickets to "fight us here".
The third, and most important reason, is that HE IS NOW IN THE MIDDLE OF A CIVIL WAR. No matter how the government and the media try to spin it. Iraq is in civil war. It will be until a (very) strong man regime is put in place to opress the people into civility.

So, unless I hear a plan coming from the military leadership of this country that will work to end the civil war, I will continue to feel that the leadership of this country is FULL OF SHIT.

Now, don't leave, or I really will feel that conservatives are the true sissies.
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I was unaware that I was pontificating, JD. I am in a unique position to be informed as things happen in the army medical corps. I did not know that by wanting the "troops" to have the best of everything that I was being disloyal to POTUS and wanting the conflict in Iraq to fail. I do see it as an exercise in futility but I am willing for someone to prove me wrong. I have traveled many miles since my military family has been stationed abroad and everytime I see an American soldier I tell them "Thank you for all you do for us" On severeral long flights I have had discussions with various soldiers. I never question their reason for doing what they do. I listen and then tell them that I hope that their service in the mid east will not be required much longer. I have never had any of them tell me that given enough time this area can be turned into a self sufficient Democracy. They just want to come home to the USA where suicide bombers fighting for religious superiority are not the "norm" YET.

- Petunia



Petunia--

Hopefully this was written before you got my email--that is, if you got it. Did you ?
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ENJOY THE RIDE, THERE IS NO RETURN TICKET. CARLIN
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In many cases the VA intentionally uses drugs that might have the needed effect as a secondary result of their use. (Not what the drug is mfg'd for). The VA will hand out that drug to see if it works on the secondary problem and then after 10 years they can submit papers showing their study and get published.
The vets are their Ginny pigs and that is shameful.

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Jack Ruby
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It's time for a wake up call. Pull the troops out, let them have a civil war, ours turned out okay. The strongest will survive. Come to terms with the new government, the terms are:
1. Keep your stuff in your country and we will keep ours in ours.
2. If you provide arms, intelligence, or aid to any organization or affiliation that in turn attacks the US we will nuke you.

Now many of you will say that this is unrealistic. I say that this continuation of political BS that we currently call whatever policy that we have in place to deal with the world. Let's place sanctions, let's do some air strikes, no, lets just send in American men and women, so that their blood can flow on the ground of a country that couldn't care one schilling about us or our ideology.

My analogy: we could stop illegal drugs in the country, by making one law....that law is
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