Charter Schools (from Petunia)

Okay, we do have some other important things to discuss today, but I think we do need to keep our eye on the "prize". (better education for all) How is the most recent state plan, letting everyone choose what school their child attends, help this? Once again we are watering down the education that is available. Why not just make all schools better and save that money. Please tell me some of you are concerned by posting your thoughts and ideas. My plan is not the only approach but we must make a start somewhere.

A big thank you to my friend Julia for helping me get this on a forum.

Petunia, I can tell you really want to discuss these issues, and they certainly deserve a good twice-over by us Cocklebur bloggers, but the differences in opinion between those within the education establishment and those on the outside looking in apparently won't be easy to reconcile.

Do you think parents should have absolutely NO choice in their children's education? What they're assigned is what they're stuck with, period? I noticed in the story about Rex's proposal for "school choice" that some are already squawking about losing funds in the child's home district, but it seems to me that, other than any tax money dedicated to school bonds in his home district, all other state and federal funds would be distributed based on where the student actually goes to school (most of those distributions are based on ATTENDANCE, not student's home ADDRESS.)

And, make all schools "charter" schools? Are you implying that we shouldn't improve ANY school until we have the money to improve EVERY school?

There's a lot I could say about that concept - most of it very negative - but please clarify for me first before I go off on an unnecessary tangent (trigonometry was never my strong suit.) Thanks.

JD,

I was so thrilled to read in the paper today that there is to be pre K three and four year old classes at South Fant
School next year. I believe that there was a Pre K four year old class a Nevett Forest last year. That is what I am talking about. When the money is available start and improve programs in schools, one at a time if necessary, until all schools have whatever educational tools we can provide. Transporting pupils all over the county would impose a terrible burden on the tax payer and take money from other necessary programs.

I definitely believe parental choices is one of the most important issues in schools. First of all parents should become involved. Some businesses actually will give you time off to volunteer at your child's school. Give up your lunch hour if necessary. If you have to work two jobs to support your family, attend the parent teacher conferences or meetings. If these times are not convienient for your work schedule contact the principal of the school and arrange a time to meet with your child's teacher.

In my grandchildren's German grammar school the teacher is evaluated by the parents. The custom is that the teacher follows your child from first through the fourth grade if the majority of the parents with children in that class agree. If not that teacher is replaced. There are many small neighborhood schools and I believe that you can change schools at any time. As the child finishes the fourth grade they are evaluated by these teachers as to whether they have the work ethic and inclination to advance to collegiate standards. That child advances to the gymnausium where after nine additional years they are well prepared for college or jobs with a better than average paycheck. If not the child continues basic high school courses and provided many opportunities to choose a worthy endeavor with which to provide a livelyhood. Even those not chosen for the "Gym" are allowed to attend private schools to complete studies appropriate for entrance to any college. All the public school system is paid for out of tax revenue. No income tax. Everything is taxed 16%. (maybe not food at the grocery or RX's) My grandchildren attend for free. They live on the economy and spend most of their money, on which American taxes are paid, in the small town where they live.

I returned to Anderson after 20 years to see that education had not only not improved but had declined. You can offer education to all but some choose not and others are not capable of attaining the standards needed for graduation from our high schools. You may say that is a elitist approach. I don't disagree, but who is going to meet the requirements for employment of the companies that could choose to place their businesses here if we don't provide a better education to our children.

I appreciate the chance to say all this and hope it will inspire some of you to take a real interest in our schools

Not to disagree with anyone and I do know that is is an important issue to many but my main concern are these things.
1. If the teachers have no control over the students and right now they don't how can they be expected to teach anything.
2. If the students are not taught the basics before they are taught anything else and by basics I mean reading writing and basic math. How in god's name do we expect the to learn anything. My God if the students cannot read that is disgraceful.
3. As long as pop psychs and lawyers keep jumping on any teacher that trys to teach by imposing restrictions on things like phones , calulators and such so the student has to pay attention then all of the chrter schools and pre K schools in the world will do no good at all.

JD and many of you want more "Parental Choice" in the type of education provided in SC. Here is you opportunity to have that.

Noeline, In answer to your points: #1 Parents should get involved. Parents should demand more diciplined atmosphere where it is easier for children to learn. They could volunteer to be in the classroom as an aid to help defuse situations before they get out of hand. More rules would be made concerning acceptable decorum (that was the word they used in my day) in the classroom which
would give teachers more power. This is all put back on the parents to be responsible to teach their children to respect authority and and if they choose to be disruptive that they will suffer the consequences.

#2 Basic preparedness would be taught in the Pre 3 and 4. It is a known fact that children develop their moral behavior by age 5. They could have role models at this early age that may differ from what they are exposed to in their daily life. You have to develop a "love" of learning before you can educate anyone.

#3 RULES RULES RULES !!!!!!! Parents need to demand that the School District make rules and stand up for
their teachers. ie cell phone use, tardyness, inappropriate dress, or language. I realize that even those who do not conform have to be educated till they reach a certain age. How many parents want their child to be in a alternative setting and only receive a GED?

Noeline, you raised some very good points. Thank you!

Let's do away with "Zero Tolerance" first, then we can talk about parental involvement, discipline, and "RULES, RULES, RULES."

As long as "Zero Tolerance" is in place, discipline is a joke because of the very wrong message it sends to the children: "Real-world rules and protections that other Americans enjoy don't apply to you."

I'm not talking about anything major, I guess. Just the right of self defense, the right to appeal, and the right of habeus corpus. Did you know that things that are perfectly legal in the REAL world can get a child kicked out of school for the remainder of the school year?

Yeah, that'll teach them about "equal justice for all" won't it?

Let's do away with "Zero Tolerance" first, then we can talk about parental involvement, discipline, and "RULES, RULES, RULES."

As long as "Zero Tolerance" is in place, discipline is a joke because of the very wrong message it sends to the children: "Real-world rules and protections that other Americans enjoy don't apply to you."

I'm not talking about anything major, I guess. Just the right of self defense, the right to appeal, and the right of habeus corpus. Did you know that things that are perfectly legal in the REAL world can get a child kicked out of school for the remainder of the school year?

Yeah, that'll teach them about "equal justice for all" won't it?

- JDTippett

I can't believe it. I completely agree with JD.

I am not aquainted with "Zero Tolerance". I am aware that children have been suspended for the rest of the year for what would have been a minor offense in my day. (smoking, fighting to defend one's self) I guess my question is what is "Zero Tolerance" and if it is as bad as JD says why are Parents not "up in arms"? It is a known fact that Teachers and Administrators do not deal with these minor infractions with a cool head and impartial judgement. At very least the students infractions should be brought up before a board of teachers, students, and uninvoled Parents. Seems like that would be equal justice.

I agree with the rest of you that schools in SC have more problems than those in the establishment like to admit. Here are a few that aren't often talked about:

1. School districts hire bad teachers. There are a variety of reasons, but it happens. Often they are coaches who care nothing about teaching, but have to teach anyway or those who simply couldn't cut it in anything else when they were in college. Also, state programs encourage dumb teachers. In order to keep a LIFE scholarship in SC you have to keep a 3.0 GPA. In order to keep a Teaching Fellows scholarship, you only have to keep a 2.8 despite the fact that education classes are often easier than classes in other subjects. That should tell us something.

2. "Innovative" programs are sometimes more about building a school's image than fostering better academic achievement. For example, in District 1 we have a Freshman Academy system now. I was in the last class that went through the traditional freshman system. All of my experience with this Freshman Academy has been that it is a joke. Teachers us "alternative methods" and "creative activities" as an excuse not to teach. Also, they are going away from traditional in class examinations such as essays and tests and replacing them with projects or "super projects" that last for entire semesters and constitute a significant portion of a student's grade.

3. Finally, many parents are not involved because they feel that have no effective means to see any change. They fear retaliation on their students if they complain too much. Teachers and administration are unified in allowing no division from any decisions made regarding students and are more likely to want to explain to parents how hard their job is or how bad the students are then to engage in any true dialogue. They talk the ears off of school board members and they often do nothing. In reality they cannot or choose not to do anything because all the decisions are made by superintendents and principals anyway. Seems to me the only thing the school boards can hold districts feet to the fire on is the budget. Finally, incompetence has crept into school districts at all levels of administration and instruction and a few bad apples are slowly ruining the whole batch.

Thank you Lee for bringing up some more problems.

I don't believe the District sets out to hire "bad" teachers. Perhaps they do accept teachers that are not brilliant scholars. Some of them could be taught on the job if they have some serious mentoring and really want to become good instuctors and role models for our youth. I am sure the District hires people that not suited to teaching and keep them on in fear of not being able to replace them until they find a more suitable outlet in which to earn a living and leave.

I agree we must teach the basics and forget all the innovative "clap trap" until these goals are met.

Write or call you school board members and let them know your wishes. They are our elected officials. Ask for an accounting of all persons at the administrative level. They in turn should be responsible for the personnel that they hire to "do the job"

Three items of interest on schools in AIM today. The editorial is titled Sink or swim or save. Very timely! A letter to the editor questioning the Supt. of Education's plan to make all schools available for choice in the next three years. Straight talk questioning choice for Anderson County selection to board of education.

My favorite appears in Sunday's AIM on the business page. (Well written informative article, Heidi)

We now have the honor of having the most career counselors in our schools in the entire US. I am asking why do we have all these counselors and such a poor graduation rate. Seems all this time and salary money is wasted unless we perhaps start earlier. By fourth or fifth grade most students or some parents, for that matter, do not have a clue what they "want to be when they grow up". Aptitute and work ethic could be evaluated. I believe that if these councelors are to "earn their keep" they must begin their endeavor at this age. Most classroom teachers could probably evaluate their students in these aspects. Couselors could then do their work to direct these students to presentations by businesses on these careers. Yes, in grammar school. By entrance into the sixth grade an educational map for each student could then be provided. These could be adjusted at any appropriate time or grade level. Too much work for these counselors? Maybe, but are they getting paid at a higher salary then the classroom teachers? Are they working eight hour days? Are they working 11 or twelve months a year?

Mrs. Charalambous brought up a great point. I encourage everyone to check out how many guidance counselors their schools have in relation to the number of students. Also, see how many secretaries these guidance counselors have, and there are other questionable positions such as "School to Work Coordinatior" that I am not sure exactly what they do, but I'd bet they get paid just as much if not more than teachers.

To JD Tippit on "Zero Tolerance". It is interesting that you rave about rules and discipline yet then berate the Zero Tolerance rule.

Please go by and talk with the Principals and others why zero tolerance is practiced and give ANY example where a student is expelled or suspended for the year for a minor infraction. In my experience we are not suspending or expelling ENOUGH!

Every parent want discipline in the school until it hurts their "little darling" and then the rules need to be bent for their kid.

I have no problem with discipline or rules. What I object to is the trading in of common sense for the rules of political correctness.

"Justice" requires that authority take a look at each case individually and make determinations on a number of factors - such as intent, relative responsibility, etc., etc., etc.

"One size fits all" rules are not "justice." They are manifestions of an attitude that 'we don't have time to treat these students as individuals."

It's the educational equivalent of "kill 'em all - let God sort 'em out."

JD, My Brother-in-Law serves on the expulsion board for School District 5.

He is not a District employee and each student is given a hearing before expulsion, AFTER the schools have had their say.

Which part of Zero Tolerance should be changed to only partial tolerance? The weapons on school grounds? The drugs?

I have no problem with a ban on drugs and weapons on school grounds, JustThinking. It's in the DEFINITION of drugs and weapons that school officials have lost their minds.

Over-the-counter pain medications like Motrin and asprin ARE NOT ILLEGAL DRUGS.

A plastic knife packed in a lunch to cut a piece of chicken IS NOT A WEAPON.

A plastic watergun IS NOT A WEAPON.

A drawing of a soldier with a rifle IS NOT A WEAPON, nor is it a threat to society.

Yet, children have been suspended from schools throughout the nation for those things, and for even more inocuous things.

Ban drugs. Ban weapons. "Zero tolerance" for those in schools is appropriate in most cases except for law enforcement personnel and adults with carry permits or other authorization.

But before you ban something, at least understand the definition and description of what you're banning.

Did that answer your question about why some of us find "zero tolerance" so idiotic?

Oh, yeah, and random searches of student vehicles - without probable cause, without a warrant - does stretch the protections of the U.S. Constitution beyond recognition, I think. (Even poor Miranda would be upset about this one.) I have no idea if that's done in Anderson County, but I know for a fact that it's done in Pickens County.

I know of a recent case at a local school where a young man was expelled because the drug dogs went off on his car. They searched his car and found nothing. However, after further searching they found part of 1 marijuana stem ground up in the floor mat on his car.

Also, students have been expelled for forgetting that their hunting rifle was still in their truck from the weekend before or accidentally having a pocket knife in their pocket. We should eliminate "zero tolerance" and expel students on a case by case basis.

I agree with all of that, Lee, except for one thing: If a drug dog indicates the presence of SOMETHING in a vehicle, that provides the probable cause for a search.

The same thing applies to traffic stops in the real world.

What I'm concerned about is those searches of student vehilcles that are carried out by school officials and either contract security groups of law enforcement FOR WHICH THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION, other than they can do it if they decide to.

Here's one for you that happened at one of our high schools in Pickens County, I'm told: A young lady had driven her car to school one morning, not even thinking about the fact that her father had driven the car a bit over the weekend. During a random search, school officials found a part of a pack of cigarettes (belonging to her father) in the car. Guess who got suspended for bringing tobacco products onto the campus? A pity. She was an honor student too, but with the realization that even honor students have no civil rights in high school, she may well become a dropout before it's all over.

Zero tolerance = Zero thought by administrators = less work, same pay. It's an outrage.

I agree with all of that, Lee, except for one thing: If a drug dog indicates the presence of SOMETHING in a vehicle, that provides the probable cause for a search.

The same thing applies to traffic stops in the real world.

What I'm concerned about is those searches of student vehilcles that are carried out by school officials and either contract security groups of law enforcement FOR WHICH THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION, other than they can do it if they decide to.

Here's one for you that happened at one of our high schools in Pickens County, I'm told: A young lady had driven her car to school one morning, not even thinking about the fact that her father had driven the car a bit over the weekend. During a random search, school officials found a part of a pack of cigarettes (belonging to her father) in the car. Guess who got suspended for bringing tobacco products onto the campus? A pity. She was an honor student too, but with the realization that even honor students have no civil rights in high school, she may well become a dropout before it's all over.

Zero tolerance = Zero thought by administrators = less work, same pay. It's an outrage.

- JDTippett

I agree with you, JD, and would suggest that zero tolerance be replaced with simple common sense.

Certainly an educated teacher or administrator can see that a small, bluntended plastic knife is not a killing weapon, particularly in the hand of a second grader.

Or that a kiss on the cheek of a female classmate by a boy in kindergarden does not indicate the start of a vicious sexual attack.

Common sense, please. . .

"...and so it goes." KV